- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
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I agree there’s a lot of problems with unpaid internships and work and such, but I don’t think this is that bad?
It feels like “hey, if you really like our product and want to show it off, we can send you information and merch, and put you in touch with higher ups.”
I’d complain if Microsoft or Google started doing this, because they are huge megacorps with deep pockets, but Framework seems like a small company that can’t really afford huge marketing departments. If people want to devote their time to a cause they beleive in, more power to them.
They also aren’t doing it with the promise or threat of something, which is an issue with a lot of unpaid work. The people they’re targeting know exactly what they are getting into, and that they are doing it for their own reasons.
Yeah, I’m fine with it.
can’t afford huge marketing departments
Then they need to market within their budget. That’s not an excuse.
a cause they beleive in
profitable companies are causes now
Profitable companies don’t get to have “volunteers.” Non-profits and charities get to have those. This is data collection for product development, and advertising for products.
This is a reason for me to not buy a Framework laptop.
profitable companies are causes now
People want to promote companies with ethical business practices. I don’t understand why that’s such a problem for you.
I won’t even volunteer feedback to companies when they ask for it, and they incessantly ask for it.
Well its not gonna get any better by not supporting the companies that try to do better.
I don’t put up with for-profit companies any more than I have to. I don’t support them or do charity work for them. Corporate brands are not out friends.
What non-profit company did you get the computer you are currently using to type these messages from?
Do you think that’s a clever gotcha? I said, “I don’t put up with for-profit companies any more than I have to.”
Edit to add: For a free & commercial free & non-profit social media platform with a FOSS focus, there’s a surprising amount of corpo simping going on here.
Well that’s your prerogative but I’ve no idea what that has to do with this conversation. Nobody should be allowed to do it because you don’t want to do it?
Companies ask for feedback so they can make products people actually want to buy…you have a problem with that as well?
Fix Consumer Electronics
We know consumer electronics can be better for you and for the environment. Unlike most products, ours are open for you to repair and upgrade.
That’s the “cause” that people believe in. And the volunteers that they are looking for are those that think Framework are the way to accomplish it. Realistically, that problem can’t be solved by a non-profit - Materials, logistics and R&D can’t be done by volunteers. So a corporation is the only reasonable choice for the goal they want to accomplish.
I’m sure they would love to be able to pay all the people that will volunteer, but they likely just don’t have the money. So it’s either give volunteers something for helping out, or just do nothing and ignore them.
You might want to actually read the article, cause that’s completely missing the point of the program, and ignoring all context. As with all things, context matters.
It’s a free market though. You can just buy from the wonderful companies that are Dell or Lenovo instead. Don’t try to look to closely at them, or you won’t be able to but a laptop ever again.
I did actually read the article and I did not miss the point even a little bit.
I think the jury is still out on whether Framework can be profitable. And by that definition, literally asking someone what product you want them to make is data collection.
I’m not a fan of a for-profit organisation having unpaid workers, but I get it if they want to see an otherwise unprofitable, yet passionate demographic. If they can compensate the person in other ways like was mentioned above (merch, contact with decision makers, possibly info on future products) then there is some exchange happening there and maybe that’s worth it to the right person.
Unpaid Linux ambassadors? Isn’t that just Lemmy?
May the Penguin be with you!
Unpaid Linux ambassadors?
No, unpaid Framework PR people at Linux events.
Like many others, I have mixed feelings on this. If anyone is stopping by and doesn’t want to read through the linked forum thread, this is frameworks goal:
This isn’t a program to get people to go to conferences and rep Framework, it’s a program to give people who are already going to conferences and showing off their Framework some swag and opportunities to talk with the team. It’s not assigning work, it’s just saying thank you to people who are excited about Framework and active in the Linux community.
That is how they should have described it right away, nobody would have been upset about it.
From my read, this is not even for marketing, but mainly for feedback to improve framework products. Framework will also have merch packages for the ambassador.
These ambassadors would attend linux conferences anyways, framework just want them to communicate to frameworks when anyone have any feedback.
I am okay with this.
Oh nice!
Then it’s really just a bad name. Volunteer ambassador implies a lot of other responsibilities.
Other industries call it like VIP or Insiders Club. And their responsibilities for being a part of it is to also share the excitement of the product.
I can understand why this may be a issue to some people. I think if they asked Windows users this, there wouldn’t be as much of a strong reaction to this. Maybe it comes off as exploiting the good will of the Linux community, but I can’t read minds.
I’m personally ok with this. If someone willingly volunteers and enjoys doing this, then what’s the problem? But again, I’m not sure if that’s the core issue at hand here.
it feels to me, like they’re less looking for new people to start doing this “work”, but more to connect with people who already happen to be enthusiastically going to events and showing off their laptops.
Windows did have something liked this. It was the MVP program.
Not passing judgement at this volunteering specifically but willingly doing something doesn’t necessarily mean there’s no problems. It could still be exploitative.
Framework clarified they are looking for people who already own Frameworks and are already attending Linux events and happy to talk to people about their laptop. They’re not really asking people to do anything additional, but they will be giving them some free merchandise.
What I feel would be acceptable:
If you’re proud of your Framework laptop and want to brag about it, we’ll give you some swag for free that you can show off with when you’re out and about!
What this looked like to me:
If you’re attending a conference we’d be paid to attend, but can’t go to, will you show off your Framework laptop to attendees in an effort to convince them to buy one from us too, and we’ll send you some stickers?
The issue isn’t even what they’re asking for, but how their asking it.
Ubuntu has had ambassadors for a very long time, the first is essentially how they did it. Also, local events was mostly things like LUG meetings or actual events in the area.
This seems very poorly conceived and exploitative. Or at the very least, very poorly communicated.
I thought that there was no way this was unpaid and that the ambassadors would get Framework tech. Nope. You have to already own it. Doesn’t even seem like it comes with a discount even?
I am a product “ambassador” for several things in the gaming world. I get access to new things earlier and at a discounted rate. I get free promotional items that actually have some value. I sometimes get a per diem if I do certain events. I feel valued. I don’t get that vibe at all from this.
And how much do these products you’re an ambassador of cost?
And are these new start-ups, or mega-companies?
Game promos are usually expensive long-term because they’re produced in limited batches.
Most board game companies run off Kickstarter. Your distinction doesn’t really apply because it’s not normal to get external funding. Framework just hit their Series A which, usually, includes money for marketing and running in the red. Board game companies usually can’t run in the red.
You’re comparing board game companies with a laptop manufacturing company, right?
A company manufacturing a laptop like the Framework laptop is not just sourcing parts and assembling them together. There’s a LOT of work put in it, way more than some board game.
Their laptop costs in the thousands, and given their (so far) niche market, I can see why it isn’t feasible for them to give away these expensive to manufacture machines to community ambassadors.
That explanation runs counter to my experience with VC-funded companies, marketing budgets, and running in the red in general. Trying to hit as much of the total addressable market as possible means burning money. Notice how I expanded and included discounts? You don’t even get a 5% off code. Framework is making a profit so they can lose margin on a low percentage (if they’re not making a profit then there’s no reason to not throw away more to get closer to TAM anyway).
Board games run in the thousands for some of the bigger ticket items. I’m not sure you understand either market. I regularly crowdfund packages that are more than at least 25% of the Framework prices I’m skimming now.
Thanks for the insight.
They are specifically searching for volunteers. So it makes sense that they are searching for an owner and active user of their product instead of a random person that may or may not understand their product value. If you are requiring payment to be their ambassador then you are working for them not volunteering.
You’ve done a great job summarizing the bad things they’re doing!
I don’t know man. If I have a framework laptop AND I regularly attend computer events of some sort, the framework ambassador programs do not sound all that different than the usual but you got free merch. That is the people they are targeting. You can even say their fanboy or whatever equivalent.
Ultimately, framework knows there are people that are actively using their products, attending events and love to talk about their products. This can be seen in another way of framework giving those people free merch for their free marketing that they always do anyway.
I agree that it can be viewed that way. I wish they would have worded it accordingly.
„We would like to award i our die hard fans with free merch through our ambassador programme. Please email us if you: 1. own a framework device, 2. regularly attend conferences, 3. like to talk about framework to new people. In this case you‘re eligible for our ambassador programme and to free merch and other cool stuff.“
In harsh opposition to searching for people working for free for a (albeit good meaning I suppose) for profit company.
Send me a laptop and I’ll spend a few hours a week helping on your forums or even tickets. But no one should work for free
I don’t have a Framework Laptop, can I still apply? Our ambassadors need to be active users and owners of Framework Laptop(s)
I wonder if volunteer ambassadors have to report to someone and if they have deadlines…
If you’re working for a privately owned for-profit corporation, you’re not a volunteer.
If you’re not getting paid for that work, you’re a volunteer. That’s literally what a volunteer is.
Two rules:
Your second link is honestly should be a sticky on a lot of communities and I try to always show people that video to illustrate how hard things are for people.
They could’ve worded it better, and make it clearer in the first couple of sentences that this is intended for owners of FWs who already go to these events.
I had bigger issues with, say, Ubisoft and JGL getting artist to work for exposure on Beyond Good and Evil 2 back when that was a thing.
But I also 100% that it feels like asking for free labour, intended or not.
I have a Framework 13" DIY running Linux. It is functional. I am reasonably confident I will be able to buy replacements for anything that breaks which is important to me. It is well designed for repair and upgrade but other devices offer better price/performance/features. If you are on a tight budget and care about the environment buy used.
If you are on a tight budget
Not for tight budgetsSorry i didn’t read the whole statement
If you are on a tight budget and care about the environment buy used.
Long-term?
I purchased in December 2022. I have not needed to buy any replacement parts but availability appears good.
At the same time I bought one of my kids the cheapest MSI laptop I could find for school. I just learned some of the keys on the MSI have been working intermittently. I have no idea what to do with it. We didn’t value a laptop for running Microsoft Word very highly and spent the savings on linux desktop upgrades. I can’t say it was the wrong choice. With the Framework it is trivial to check the connector or order a replacement but there was a substantial price difference.
Out of selfishness I would like people to keep buying Framework so they keep their replacement parts stocked but blind brand loyalty is stupid. People don’t need remuneration to engage in a hobby but if they are working for a company then unpaid labour is generally an abuse.
You can probably find a used keyboard on eBay. Even if the OEM doesn’t sell parts plenty of people will part out old broken machines.
Hm. I don’t have anything against volunteer roles (there’s a difference between volunteer roles and “unpaid work”, “unpaid work” implies a form of coercion—if it’s a volunteer role you can say no with no punishment or consequence), but the way it’s described, e.g. the implied expectation of conducting yourself professionally at Linux conferences, makes it sound like it will have quite a bit more responsibility than most volunteer roles in the Linux community. And Framework isn’t a nonprofit; they produce and sell commodities, so they should be able to pay their own workers.
I’m not rioting over it, I don’t ultimately care too much and if people want to volunteer for this role that’s their choice. I think I’d prefer they paid these ambassadors but ultimately if you don’t want to do this for free there’s not really anything coercing you into doing it, so.
I think the “Showcasing Framework Laptops” is what rubs me the wrong way. I like the idea of trying to get feedback and learn the need of real linux users but anything that qualifies as marketing should be paid.
There’s nothing wrong with volunteering with a FOSS project
Framework is not a FOSS project, it’s not a charity or a non-profit organization, it’s a company. Would you volunteer to work for free at your job?
I do volunteer for open hardware projects, yes.
That’s hardware.
Its both. And there’s nothing wrong with volunteering for it
I wouldn’t blame a volunteer but I think its wrong for for-profit companies to ask for non remunerated work
There’s nothing wrong with them asking
There is something wrong if they make demands
