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Veganism is just as political as Linux, and just as annoying when people evangelize it.
This
I use Arch and am vegan. Now that I established my superiority, you are fucking wrong!
I bet I know what sort of socks you wear
Of course I go sockless in these bad boys
When I die, feed my body to the animals as payback
You hate them that much, huh?
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Are they the same person?
Veganism is like religion. As long as you keep it to yourself I couldn’t care less. But if you make it your personality or proselytize about it then I’ll probably think it’s fun to make fun of you for it.
It’s much more like politics than it is religion. People take a stance because of their values, ethics, mortality, etc (as opposed to religion which is generally a more irrational basis for belief). And the reasons for being loud about it follow from that.
So if you can understand why someone might proselytize about the situation in Gaza, then you should also understand why someone might proselytize for veganism, even if your views might align differently for different issues.
Thing is, most people WOULD CARE if I treat a dog, cat, or any other cute animal the same way as dairy/meat industry does. Why doesn’t the “as long as you keep it to yourself” argument count in this case (might not be for you but for most people)?
It’s about philosophy/ethics and not religion.
Yeah, just like other kinds of animal abuse. I can’t stand anyone who speaks out against puppy mill, dog fighting, killing race horses, elephants in circuses, bear bile farming, the fur trade, poaching etc.
Like get a fucking life, they’re just there to be used. If you want to be some goody two shoes and give a shit about orangutans or whatever fine, be a stupid Puritan but don’t you dare try and stop me from setting up monkey knife fights.
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I don’t think you’re evil. I think that like almost all vegans you were raised to be complicit in an evil system. You were fed propaganda, discouraged from questioning norms, had behaviours reenforced as wholesome and good from before you were even a conscious person.
I think you’re wrong, I think what you do is deeply harmful, I don’t have any respect for hiding from the truth, refusing to engage, and bad faith replies but I don’t think you’re evil.
Was every man who denied women votes evil? everyone involved in every war of aggression? every slaver that ever was? every bureaucrat of empire? They were wrong, selfish, engaged in motivate reasoning, and harmful. Some were probably evil, most were probably a little lazy or a little stupid. Unfortunately that’s all atrocity takes.
In seriousness, the reason people try spread vegan ideas is the exact same reason people try spread their political ideas: because they believe there is injustice in the world which they are trying to help fix.
just putting this out here. feels like its quite relevant to this comment section.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY62dhVThbeegLPpvQlR4CjF
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY62dhVThbeegLPpvQlR4CjF
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Piped sux
Veganism isn’t political. It’s just stupid.
There is no ethical consumption under Capitalism, so jot that down.
I’m tired of hearing this phrase inappropriately used in such a cynical hedonistic fashion. 90% of the time I hear it, the person is using it as if to say “All consumption under capitalism is equally ethical.” Of course they don’t seriously believe that, but because they aren’t saying what they mean perhaps it allows them to maintain this cognitive dissonance.
People with this mindset would not be useful post revolution without reeducation. Y’all are just jealous of the parasitic class and would not want to make a better world if it were even a minor inconvenience to you. If we simply eat the rich and loot their coffers what we will be left with is a bunch of worthless financial instruments and the reins of the exploitative industry, and we must do more than simply grab those reins and be our own slave drivers.
While that is true, it ignores the fact that not all consumption is equally unethical.
There is no ethical consumption under a system that takes resources from people by force. Consent legitimizes economic interaction.
I never consented to being born.
“No ethical consumption under capitalism” says nothing about the abstaining from consumption.
https://animalclock.org/
Not what that meannnnnnnns someone eat this kulak
I literally almost never eat meat, i just enjoy cheese and butter, the dairy alternatives haven’t caught up to the alternative meats yet. I used to love cooking and eating steak (used to make a mean Steak Diane), but haven’t in years due to how terrible beef farming is for the environment. If I’m given free food that would go to waste without me eating it I’ll eat meat, but only if their is no veggie alternative. There is literally so much fuxking human suffering in the world to care about and mediate before we should spend all our time and energy worrying about animal suffering. If humanity doesnt even have class conciousness, how can you expect it to have the empathetic capacity to care about animal suffering, when it doesnt give a damn aboht human suffering. And yes there is no ethical consumption under Capitalism.
Bro you don’t get to say “But have you considered that the cow torturers are being exploited of the value of their labor?!?!?” and pretend it’s praxis.
Like, sure, but contributing to both isn’t an answer.
They quite literally are being exploited of their labor value, and have one of the grossest most disgusting jobs in modern society.
Sure. How does buying the meat help?
It doesnt. Whats your point?
What’s the point of bringing up a phrase that most people just use to keep buying cheap shit from Amazon?
I literally dont buy meat lol
I didn’t say you did.
I said “How does buying the meat help.”
Yes so let’s continue finding the genocide of billions of sentient beings that can feel pain and don’t want to die to be ground up and turned into fucking burger.
They don’t want to die to be ground up into burger, and they don’t want its opposite either.
A right to life is most appropriate for any conscious being which benefits emotionally from that right. This requires:
Animals all over there earth eat each other constantly, often while the meal is still alive. Grow up.
Animals do it for survival. Humans do it for fun. By your logic, should we legalize murder because animals of the same species kill each other without consequences?
This fckn argument shows how brainwashed we as a society are. You didnt even think for 0.01s before posting this, but you did anyway because it is branded into your brain.
I eat to survive. You apparently eat to have something to proselytize about. An omnivorous diet that your distant ancestors had enabled you to have that large brain you aren’t using here. While the last part of the previous sentence is speculation based on evidence you’ve provided freely, the first part is pretty much established fact at this point.
The problem is the scale at which we do it. I don’t have a problem with small and ethical farms killing some animals to sell or use themselves, but I don’t remember lions breeding their prey into slavery, injecting them with chemicals, and turning them into bigmacs millions of times over.
Saying that scale is the problem is the epitome of collectivism. The individualist approach sees the moral landscape as the experience of the individual.
In collectivist terms, which cannot help expressing these things in terms of numbers, the individualist view can be expressed as “one is too many”.
But in individualist terms, it’s not about numbers at all. It’s about pain, pleasure, hope, fear, sadness, anger, etc.
This concept of “well anything over fifteen thousand is too many”, drawing a line between numbers and calling that line the divider between good and bad, is a sure path to evil.
Also corporate industrial waste that throws away hundreds of pounds like it’s nothing. But that’s a different argument from eating meat.
I don’t think you should be using wild animals as your moral compass? Or do you actually think you’re as incapable of controlling yourself as a wild dog or something?
Oh no, our treatment of food animals is most definitely well controlled and light years beyond the morality of nature
The foxes are keeping hens immobilized in boxes their entire life and throwing male chicks in a massive grinder because they’re economically useless? Here I thought they were just savagely but quickly tearing individual birds up to eat.
Have you met any humans lately? 🙄
The fact that you’re making this moral judgement about other people proves that you understand you shouldn’t follow their examples either. Grow up.
I don’t use lions as my moral compass otherwise I would be eating toddlers.
You’ve never tried toddler meat?! You’re missing out there!
I’ll assume you’re not someone who’s ever said “eat the rich” then
This viewpoint is valid as long as you agree you aren’t morally or intellectually superior to a fish.
Well, actually, many fish are obligate carnivores, so they don’t have a choice, so maybe more like a rat or a bear.
What’s with the vegan hate? Leave that shit at Reddit.
Nobody really hates vegans specifically, idgaf what you eat. But when they go holier-than-thou about my choice of calories I’m gonna block.
Mr. Militant is an obvious troll account and shouldn’t be taken seriously
is an extremely common tactic for silencing a voice.
You block who you want. Don’t try to affect my block list.
Read all the comments in this thread that say “OP” next to the user. I don’t call people “trolls” very quickly because most of the time that’s wrong, statistically. But they are either a troll or— more likely— an annoying militant vegan.
Have you considered maybe your “participation” is just insufferable even if it weren’t blatantly bad faith?
Uh oh, you don’t agree with something on the Internet, better delete it
Yeah, bad faith participation is awesome if you have an excuse.
Ohh “Everything I don’t agree with is bad faith,” the sequel to the original, nice.
I do appreciate how they built on the narrative but tried to keep it interesting
Something y’all need to realise is that commenting “Abusing animals is literally H*tler and you should be publicly executed for eating a chickenburger” is not going to turn someone vegan. Go look for smarter ways, god damn it.
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Isnt that what literally happens everywhere all the time in different context? ‘arabs beat their wives they are evil’, ‘indigenous people take halucinogenic drugs they are evil’, ‘russians kill and rape civilians they are evil’. Usually it is the strong that force their beliefs on the minorities, fortunately you cant force people to eat meat by law.
I’ve never understood why vegans, the ones the vast majority agree are doing something at least good (even if you don’t understand it’s a moral obligation), are the ones that have to cater to the genocidal masses.
Stop and think for a second, imagine you live in a wild, wild world where the vegan position is actually correct. Imagine that you’re a vegan, and those around you are actually supporting an unjustified animal holocaust. Then think about how your critique of vegans comes off. It’s the genocidal maniacs complaining about how they’re treated unfairly on the internet because sometimes someone attacks their delicate sensibilities.
It’s not my responsibility to engage with you in such a way that makes you a better person. Your own failings are your own, and my failings are my own. My failings are I sometimes make someone on the internet a bit sad, and yours are participating in a market demanding tens of billions of animal deaths every year, a quantitative level of suffering we’ve never seen before.
Because acting like a self righteous douchebag turns people off and hurts your movement. That’s counterproductive.
It’s more counterproductive to be a non-vegan and try to convince nobody. I’ve had a good deal of success convincing people to go vegan. There are definitely vegans that are more successful than me, but you want to know who is always less successful? Non-vegans who rage online about vegans.
They should be the focus of our criticism, both in their own actions, and even as a broader strategy for enacting change.
Weak argument while standing on your subjective high ground, morality is a compass. Forcing people to follow your values is in most peoples view is immoral. Veganism is cult trying to shame people and scream at them for being wrong. No different than a religion trying to force their morals on you. Also trying to force people to a specific diet is wrong, that is not taking into account individuals health.
It’s more about ethics than morality. You agree that violence is a bad thing? Good. So there is no reason these rules don’t apply to animals, since many of them can feel in a similar way humans do.
I didn’t force anyone to follow anything, but the state does and you view that as a good thing. It should be illegal to abuse and kill dogs & cats, we can agree on that obvious truth. Your inability to see how that translates to pigs/cows/chickens is just irrationality/stupidity, nothing else.
I’ve had a ton of conversations on the nature of normative truths. Rehashing it over and over again with pseudo-expressivists online is annoying, mostly because you all have actually no background in philosophy, so it’s like talking to a bunch of philosophy 101 students who have never given this more than a cursory thought.
You should look into the basis of knowledge, study a bit of epistemology. You’ll find the foundations for all truths, normative or descriptive, are quite similar. They’re all fundamentally based in axioms.
What state is forcing a diet on you?
Also: Long comments filled with malapropisms and in sesquipedalian manner doesn’t give me the best confidence that you actually know wtf you’re talking about.
Also I’d go as far to claim malapropisms don’t exist. There is no “incorrect” use of a word. I’m not a prescriptivist. Language is about communicating ideas, and I know everything I’ve said would make sense to a great deal of people I know.
Maybe something doesn’t make sense to you, maybe because we learned different definitions or usages of some word or phrase. Neither of us are wrong, we’ve just hit a language barrier. This is uncommon in English, but actually happens quite regularly in Europe even with two people speaking “the same language”.
Our best example of this is going from American -> British English, but it can happen within the same “dialect” too.
Now there are obviously times where you try to adopt some language someone else has, and misunderstood it, so your usage aligns with essentially nobody else’s (so the word has lost all function). I know that’s not the case with what I’m saying because I’ve had these types of conversations with enough people who have understood me, but I’m fine humoring you, and still interested where the clash/miscommunication happened.
Feel free to correct me, most (or dare I say all) people aren’t born omniscient, so sometimes we misuse words or phrases. I’m not sorry to admit that I’m sometimes incorrect about things, I used to be a staunch non-vegan for example.
The dog and cat meat trade prohibition act in 2018 in the U.S outlaws the slaughter and trade of dog/cat meat, in effect banning it as a diet.
I’d be more than happy with this exact same legislation being passed, but just for chickens/cows/pigs/etc. too. If you don’t think that this is prohibiting a diet, sure. Let’s just ban the slaughter/trade of cow/pig/chicken meat and say we found a good compromise.
Gibberish, complete incoherent gibberish. Still trying to force your morality on others by belittling them. Udder nonsense from an extremist.
I understand this response, it must be emotionally hard to be challenged in such a concrete and decisive way, with no rational response available to you. I see this most commonly from carnists and religious people. In politics people don’t tend to literally fall into “LALALALA” and plugging their ears like you have, but certain social conditioning (namely church and other forms of normalized structural violence) cause people to go into a defensive panic.
Good luck on learning anything in your life, honestly.
I agree with many of the sentiments of vegans. However living in a city filled with militant vegans has turned me off supporting them, that is an emotional response based on my lived experience. All the gibberish you spouted can go right back at you as your diatribe shows your own bias as well. So keep claiming superiority it won’t sway people with all your superior knowledge. If you know so much try a tactic that is more supportive instead of belittling people.
A small sidenote too about your advice, I appreciate you trying to help, but I’m actually happy with how many people I’ve converted and continue to convert to veganism. I’d even bet good money that I’ve converted more people to veganism than you.
If you find a tactic that converts more than a few dozen people per year, let me know, but out of the two of us I probably have more actual real world experience converting people to veganism, given I’m the vegan activist, and you should consider that a vegan activist might know more about vegan activism than a non-vegan.
At least consider it as a possibility, my friend.
Knowledge isn’t bad, and I’m aware of where I’m knowledgeable and where my limits are. I tend to be quite a bit more knowledgeable about philosophy than the average person, most people don’t introspect or read about where truth comes from. They often don’t even know or understand what an axiom is, even though they’re foundational to how we live.
If that’s all too much for you, you can literally just disregard my latter two paragraphs before you went into your defensive panic. I don’t (usually) need to get into the idea of normative truths to justify veganism, because ironically we live in a country of “animal lovers”, many of whom would happily literally kill dog abusers. I’ve unironically met non-vegans that advocate for the fucking death penalty for people who abuse dogs.
That amount of dissonance, to advocate for actual death for humans who abuse animals, while themselves literally paying for animal abuse, is sufficient to dismantle people’s entire preconception of animal rights and worth. If we happened to live in a society without massive hypocrites, where people consistently held that abusing and torturing all “lesser” animals was okay, I’d have to get into more nuanced discussion about the nature of truth to help people get to veganism.
Just stop and think for a second. We’re talking about posting in meme communities. Meme communities are for lighthearted jokes, not serious discussions and berating people.
Dark humor is a real thing, and it’s fine and even cathartic for a lot of people. Joking about fascists, genocide-enablers, etc. is something some people find in poor taste, while others find it cathartic. Neither is wrong.
And something y’all need to realise that 90% of vegans don’t think like that.
The ones that do are really fucking loud and make the rest of you look bad. I’m in the same boat, being an atheist.
90% of the vegans I encounter are the preachy ones making posts online. The vegans that aren’t like that don’t usually shout about being vegan and call for the death of “carnists” (BTW: there already is a word for meat eater so I don’t know why they had to make another one).
Some animals are carnivores, but they don’t want to draw attention to that. Also, humans aren’t carnivores. We’re omnivores.
I prefer “bloodmouth”
I imagine that 90% aren’t getting their memes deleted.
Read OP’s comments. OP does think like that which is exactly the problem.
I come here for the memes, not to be berated for being an “animal abuser”. Memes are supposed to be lighthearted.
I have no problem with vegans. I have problems with militant vegans like OP. Just like I have a problem with anyone trying to radically shove their beliefs down my throat, no matter what topic it might involve.
While I agree, I am also not sure why vegans are being singled out for this, since I see memes and post shoving leftist politics down people’s throats constantly, and not just in political channels.
It seems that for most people, the throat shoving is only a problem when they disagree with the content, and there are a lot less vegans on Lemmy than leftists.
Even when you’re right it’s kind of on you to present your message in a way people will be receptive to
If someone is being a bigot, should they not be shamed for it? Why should I feel like I have to tip-toe around animal abusers? You’re the one doing the wrong thing. Would you adopt a vegan lifestyle if I presented my message in the way you approved of?
Assuming you’re not trolling, yes. The backfire effect is a proven psychologically studied phenomenon. Arguing at people with facts and logic and aggression tends to reinforce their original beliefs. https://effectiviology.com/backfire-effect-facts-dont-change-minds/
Ironically, telling you this will likely not convince you due to said effect.
Sorry, but the backfire effect hasn’t actually been proven, even under favorable circumstances. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7462781/
Ironically, telling you this will likely not convince you due to said effect.
Noooo how dare you prove me wrong!
Lol thanks for the info.
Absolutely.
Nice of you to use your own bigotry as an example to illustrate what people should be shamed for.
Depends: would I have to adopt the religious fundamentalist level holier than thou bigotry as part of the lifestyle? Because I actually prefer not to be an insufferable ass to those that don’t deserve it.
It seems like you want people to examine their long held beliefs and customs, adopt your view that they are harmful and unethical, and change their behavior to match yours. A change that may have specific hurdles unknown to you for every individual.
Humans, being social animals, don’t typically react with reason to things that they percieve to be antagonistic. They tend to mirror hostility and are most likely to fight or disengage when facing an opponent, and cleave to the safety of the groups that accept them.
Just or not, the act of starting an interaction sets the tone. You’re completely justified in attacking villains and shaming them, but when you throw a devil costume on someone I don’t think you should be surprised when you get pitchforked.
Sometimes it’s just venting, looking at vegancirclejerk groups/forums. Not every comment from a vegan about veganism is an attempt at activism, sometimes we’re just fed up with carnist bullshit and vent. If a carnist sees it and it makes them think, cool, but that’s not always the goal.
I’m already a vegetarian, but yeah, I think you can definitely have a shot at converting people if you appeal to their values and don’t attack them personally. I have a buddy who converted after watching a documentary because he’s an enviromentalist and the documentary talked about the environmental harm that comes from the livestock industry.
Baby steps, maybe just start by giving peope some easy and delicious vegetarian meals. I’m not even vegetarian but around 30 percent of my meals are vegetarian. Granted, I’m Mexican and we have a lot of really good vegetarian meals but still.
You do realize these are two separate groups of mods for each sub right?
There is no monolithic “Lemmy Mods” or even “Lemmy Admins”.
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Got you tagged as asshole now.
Not happening. Go vegan.
Dang, gelato sounds good to be honest.
https://veganfoodlover.com/vegan-gelato-recipes/