It’s only a proof of concept at the moment and I don’t know if it will see mass adoption but it’s a step in the right direction to ending reliance on US-based Big Tech.
Why Fedora? Sorry, but there are so many European options, it makes no sense to build a European house on an American basement.
The idea of a “distro for EU public sector” is neat, but even the PoC has some flaws when considering technical sovereignty.
First of all, using Gitlab & Gitlab CI. Gitlab is an American company with most of its developers based in the US. Sure, you could host it by yourself but why would you do it considering Forgejo is lighter and mostly developed by developers based in the EU area?
The idea of basing it on Fedora is also somewhat confusing. Sure, it’s a good distro for derivatives, but it’s mostly developed by IBM developers. The tech sovereignty argument doesn’t hold well against Murphy’s law.
For me, it’s a perfectly fitting compromise, because Fedora is a community that is detached from RedHat and IBM, but it is also the best distribution out there.
They are pushing the envelope and have been for some time. If it weren’t for Fedora devs we wouldn’t have seen Wayland, PipeWire, Nouveau, etc be pushed to the general public. Also Fedora a libre distribution built by community. If that were ever to change they’d hemorrhage devs.
Compare that with Ubuntu. They want a vendor lock-in via Snaps (and in one point in time Mir), they’re currently replacing coreutils (copyleft) with uutils (copyright) and have what I would say is a pretty bad and convoluted GPU stack.
OpenSuSE could probably be a better alternative, if they took the Linux desktop seriously. But they play second fiddle to Fedora and have not even been close enough to push the envelope like Fedora has.
In conclusion Fedora is the best libre Linux distributions out there.
Now if Eelco Doolstra wasn’t fucking around, we could have had a super LTS NixOS - but NOOOO.
Fedora is not that detached from IBM.They dictate it’s development hence the removal of codecs. If it was a community addition why would it matter? And why would they remove the codecs. After that it was obvious fedora was not a community dustro but driven by Redhat.
If it was a community addition why would it matter? And why would they remove the codecs.
You don’t have to be a corporation to be held liable for legal issues with hosting codecs. Just need to be big enough for lawyers to see you as an attractive target and in a country where codec patent issues apply. There’s a very good reason why the servers for deb-multimedia (Debian’s multimedia repo), RPM Fusion (Fedora’s multimedia repo), VLC’s site, and others are all hosted in France and do not offer US-based mirrors. France is a safe haven for foss media codecs because its law does not consider software patentable, unlike the US and even most other EU nations.
Fedora’s main repos are hosted in the US. Even if they weren’t, the ability for any normal user around the world to host and use mirrors is a very important part of an open community-friendly distro, and the existence of patented codecs in that repo would open any mirrors up to liability. Debian has the same exact issue, and both distros settled on the same solution: point users to a separate repo that is hosted in France which contains extra packages for patent-encumbered codecs.
Love this! We definitely should try to spread Linux to become more accessible and popular.
I read EUDORA for a split second and got all excited that the best email client ever was getting reborn!
But this is cool too… i guess.
As much as I love what they’re doing, tieing an OS to a specific region via name seems like the opposite of Open Source values… Then again, I suppose it could just be forked into a more generalized version
This is specifically for the public sector. The fact that it is open source make it adaptable to different scenarios.
Europe isn’t a region, it’s a brand.
Europe isn’t a brand, it’s a life/style.
See? That’s great branding.
Meanwhile https://www.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/petition/content/0729%252F2024/html/Linux%2Bstatt%2BWindows just closed with 2474 Supporters
Well, first I hear of it.
Great sentiment I guess but I don’t see any reason to believe this will amount to anything.
Why not use the existing Distros?
Most distros, not all, are based in, or run by, American legal entities.
Redhat, Rocky, Alma, Debian, etc - all legally American. This is a problem if the US requires sanctions against another country. All of those cannot legally supply products to Russia now, but in the future who’s to say what other countries the US will sanction? People are only now starting to realise that sanctions can be applied to software too, and many countries are entirely reliant upon US Software. (Seriously, do a quick audit - 90% of our tech company’s stack is US originated)
Alternatives: Suse (German) Ubuntu (UK, but based on Debian, so likely subject to supply chain restrictions).
Can’t we just keep going with Ubuntu and fork it the moment the US wants to do anything funny
No, because forking a distro and updating some hundred thousands of PCs is not done in a week.
Edit: and why would we go with Ubuntu…
They’ll stop receiving updates, but we don’t have to switch over in a week right?
Ubuntu is just an example {{insert any Debian based distro here}}
I’d rather they used SUSE
I just looked into how easy it would be to install nvidia drivers on openSUSE and it’s not as great as Fedora for comparison, that’s one of the only 2 down sides I’ve found so far. The other downside is a personal preference one, for many it’s an upside, and it would be an upside for anyone basing an entire distro on it, and that’s how there’s nothing fancy installed alongside openSUSE, it’s not bloated. No starship prompt in the terminal, no proprietary codecs etc. I like how openSUSE defaults to a lot of BTRFS subvolumes for almost each important root directory and comes preinstalled with snapper, that’s very neat. And it’s so nice to use YaST, what a treat. While Fedora does also have patterns, getting to use a graphical installer with YaST is so nice.
I’m glazing a lot for someone that doesn’t daily run it, so maybe I should just switch one of these days, haha. Maybe when my Nobara installation dies.My daily driver is an nvidia laptop with opensuse, takes like one afternoon to get everything ready with barely any former Linux experience.
Just use zypper (or yast) to add the proprietary nvidia repository (or nouveau) and install your drivers. Install everything else you need through zypper (or yast or flatpak). Familiarise yourself with keybinds, set new keybinds (not needed of course but its nice to know keybinds - if you’re using KDE already they’ll probably be the same anyway). Select KDE’s dark “breeze for OpenSUSE” theme (or some other theme, but breeze for opensuse just is so polished). Configure other preferences (night light from sundown to sunrise, set up Firefox sync (if you use that), connect to onedrive or whichever cloud you’re using, … . Done. No need to wait :)
Yeah I have used opensuse for the past couple years (still do!) but while there is plenty to like, if I were to do a reinstall I would likely move back to Fedora.
Then again, I basically never use YaST, which I suppose is one of the main song points.
But is it Enterprise Grade and Web Scale? RedHat has a lot of marketing legacy behind it.
Edit: I realize I probably should have specified the /s I’m making fun of RedHat marketing.
SUSE Linux Enterprise exists since 2000.
I would think that SUSE’s supported distro is enterprise ready. I don’t have personal experience on it though. I’ve only ever used Tumbleweed once. I hope a SUSE admin can respond.
I mean, SUSE Linux Enterprise, the distro on which OpenSUSE Leap is based, has been developed by SUSE since 2000. It’s newest version, 15, is used in IBM’s Watson and HP’s Frontier supercomputers. I’d say it’s enterprise ready.
If the EU were concerned about the US jurisdiction of Linux projects it could pick:
- OpenSuSE (org based in Germany)
- Mint (org based in Ireland)
- Manjaro (org based in France/Germany, and based of Arch)
- Ubuntu (org based in UK)
However if they didn’t care, then they could just use Fedora or other US based distros.
I think it would be a good idea for the EU to adopt linux officially, and maybe even have it’s own distro, but I’m not sure this Fedora base makes sense. Ironically this may also be breaching EU trademarks as it’s masquerading as an official project by calling itself EU OS.
Mint and Ubuntu have Debian as an upstream, don’t they?
Debian is a US legal entity, so if it was required to sanction countries, it feels that software built with it would likely be restricted.
Debian is open source though. So unless they make it closed source we can keep using it.
Making it closed source would probably kill it and a fork would take its place.
And fedora is controlled by IBM. What’s your point.
I’d add:
- Mageia (French)
- Zorin OS (Ireland)
- Ufficio Zero (Italy)
Last option but better for an easy migration: linuxfx.org
I would like the EU to make an official universal Linux distro, intended for the ordinary person to use on their PC. Bonus points if they can collaborate with Steam to make it compatible with gaming stuff. The big reason I stuck to Windows 11 is for the sake of games, but if compatibility and ease of use to customize was improved, I would be happy to switch away.
The big thing that the EU can bring to the project is contributing lots of money for making Linux suitable as a daily driver, along with mandating its usage on government machines.
i’d say if it happens it should start with focusing on:
- government and workstation (this is important first to have control and independence over so that government isn’t beholden to the whims of foreign companies)
- then server (maybe - idk really if that’s worth it though; it’s a whole can of compatibility worms and adoption expense)
- then user desktop
though there is the argument that workstation and user desktop are close enough to each other that user desktop should be above server, but i’d imagine it’d be more of a “home user” than gamer situation. i could imagine some regulations around refurbishing old tech with this kind of OS too, and this would be more about low spec machines (that’d help workstations too)
Fedora Origin: USA
No, thanks. 🙅
alternative POV: it’s entirely FOSS so there’s little control that can be exerted from its use. it’s also entirely free, so use is extracting value without providing anything in return. by its use, you’re taking resources to maintain, host, etc and providing nothing in return
similar reason to why i don’t use ecosia with an ad blocker: by blocking ads you’re using their resources without giving back and thus you’re taking resources away from the charity
I think the point is, you just don’t support products from countries led by dictators. I wouldn’t use an OS from North Korea, no matter how free it was. LOL
In my case, the US is worse than North Korea, because they threaten the existence of my country (Canada) on a daily basis.
And for the EU, they have as much reason to distance themselves from Americans than I do.
There are far too many alternatives from other countries to even entertain an American distro. My opinion, anyway.
This is true, but then why not base it off Guix (the GNU distro)? …I’m sure Fedora is full of binary blobs and not-so-free software.
If they needed it, they could still add extra software and blobs to Guix, sourced by the EU… and I think doing that would allow it to carve itself a niche (a version of Guix with more compatibility would be interesting for many) rather than sticking a white label on Fedora and call it something else. I don’t see a lot of value on this over just using Fedora directly, I’m not sure if it’s true that Fedora & Red Hat do not benefit from this… wouldn’t their support agents be able to just start providing support also to EU OS customers if they (both customers and support agents) want? Wouldn’t it make it more interesting for private companies working closely with the government to choose Red Hat as a partner when it comes to enterprise Linux?
I guess we’ll have to see how much they customize it, but in my experience with previous attempts, I’m expecting just a re-skin, just Fedora with different theme. At most, with some extra software preinstalled. I don’t think that’s a threat to Fedora or Red Hat, but rather an opportunity for expansion.
I’m sure Fedora is full of binary blobs and not-so-free software
fedora is staunchly opposed to non-free software in their default distro … that spat a few weeks ago with OBS was related to that AFAIK
unsure about like signed blobs for “security” services but i imagine they’d be very limited, and optional
rather than sticking a white label on Fedora and call it something else
but for what benefit? no matter what’s trying to be achieved, starting with a very full-featured, robust OS that’s widely used is going to serve you very well… not just technically (less work for the same outcome), but for human reasons
there are loads of guides out there for how to fix fedora issues, few for guix… loads of RPMs that are compatible with fedora, and i can only imagine fewer packages for guix
and then if you’re talking about server OSes - and actually workstations too - managing them with tools like ansible etc… fedora is going to have off the shelf solutions
just Fedora with different theme
well, the actual software and configuration i’d argue aren’t the important part - owning the infrastructure is the important part… package mirrors, distribution methods (eg a website), being able to veto or replace certain packages, and the branding (or regulation) that draws people to it… being able to roll out a security patch to every installation without a 3rd party okaying it, for example
Why Fedora? They’re basically Red Hat in a trench coat. I’d go with a EU based distro like Suse.
Having seen SuSE destroy collaborators like OL, CNC and probably Turbo, I’m okay never even working with them as a customer. I intend to avoid them until death.
I was wondering the same when I came across it a few hours ago and decided to look into it, apparently it’s because it was decided to use an atomic distribution as a base and Suses is apparently not considered stable enough by them. (I can not argue the validity of these statements given either way, that’s just what I found in one of their gitlab issues . if someone wants to look at it for themselves, searching for Fedora on the issue tracker should bring it up)
Well, companies like Valve, they are a bit more worried if the distro are community or organization driven. So, for government, perhaps that same philosophy should be considered which is not the case of Fedora or Suse. They check distros such as Arch or Debian and derivatives.
Well, I don’t know about Valve being worried about community distro.
Did something change?
I found that a weird statement too. It’s literally based on a rapidly moving community distribution.
Scammers never let a good global crisis get in their way.
- Rebadge a distro and say it’s fromm the EU
- …???
- Profit!
- Collect a hefty donation from EU
I wonder how much work is entailed in transforming Fedora in to a distro that meets some definition of the word “Sovereign” 🤔
Personally I wouldn’t want to make a project like this be dependent on the whims of a US defense contractor like RedHat/IBM, especially after what happened with CentOS.
I didn’t know red hat was working for the US government. Can you tell me in what way?
At the same time, Red Hat released the first version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 2.1. The Army deployed Red Hat’s operating system in its Blue Force Tracker system, which lived in jeeps and tanks on the battlefield. Major General Nicholas Justice, the man responsible for Blue Force Tracker, said later:
“When we rolled into Baghdad, we did it using open source.”1
To this day, the U.S. Army remains one of Red Hat’s largest customers by volume. Red Hat was recently made part of the Army’s Common Operating Environment, which is their enterprise standard.
Thanks I’m gonna have a deeper look into this then😇
I didn’t know red hat was working for the US government. Can you tell me in what way?
tldr: https://www.redhat.com/en/solutions/public-sector/dod
Various documents in (what wikipedia now calls) the “2010s global surveillance disclosures” showed that many components of NSA (and other Five Eyes partners) infrastructure is run on RedHat Enterprise Linux.
According to a 2008 study by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, private contractors make up 29% of the workforce in the United States Intelligence Community and cost the equivalent of 49% of their personnel budgets. RedHat is part of that industry.
It’s often illuminating to search a company’s job listings for words like “clearance”. There are currently only eight listings for that query at RedHat but sometimes they have many more. Here (archive) is a current one. Here is another one archived last year.
Here is the text, in case the archive site loses it
Consulting Architect, TS/SCI + Polygraph Clearance Required (Fort Meade)
remote type Remote
locations Remote US MD
time type Full time
posted on Posted 30+ Days Ago
job requisition id R-038935
About The Job
Red Hat’s Public Sector Consulting team is looking for a Consulting Architect with a solid background in Linux, container platforms, IT Automation, virtualization technologies and an active TS/SCI + Polygraph security clearance to join us remotely in Maryland. In this role, you will help Intelligence Community customers design and operate core infrastructure that can scale to the demands of the modern digital marketplace. You’ll work with customers in small teams to build, test, and iterate over innovative application prototypes attached to real business value. You’ll use a variety of modern application development practices, along with emerging technologies from open source communities to get it done. As a Consulting Architect, you will help us become the defining technology company of the 21st century built on open source principles. You’ll also help us to fulfill our vision by guiding the strategic success of our customers using Red Hat’s solutions by building the industry’s best team of open source developers and partnering with our customers to build the premium software systems of tomorrow.
This position requires frequent on-site work at Fort Meade and an active TS/SCI + Polygraph security clearance.
What You Will Do
- Deliver successful discovery, analysis, and design workshops for teams of technical and non-technical backgrounds that shape the customer use cases and architecture design decisions
- Scope delivery projects and guide customers through successful pilot and production deployments
- Oversee the design, creation, and delivery of content that enables the broader Red Hat teams to sell (presales), service (consulting), and support our cloud solutions at scale
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- Demonstrate expertise in cloud and DevOps communities by producing outstanding whitepapers and webinars, code contributions to relevant projects, and speeches at industry-leading conferences
- Work with customers on the writing of business justifications if needed
- Work with the open source community to engineer labs-based software solutions designed to further accelerate our customers’ success at Labs
- Become a trusted adviser to our customers, helping them achieve business success in an ever-changing technology landscape
What You Will Bring
- Active Top Secret w/ SCI security clearance + Polygraph
- Broad knowledge of Red Hat OpenShift, Red Hat Ansible Automation Platform, and Red Hat Enterprise Linux
- Broad and deep technical experience with virtualization, container, and cloud technologies
- Solid Linux system administration skills; Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE)-level Linux skills or better; certifications are a plus but not required
- Experience with cloud technologies, especially Red Hat OpenStack Platform, Amazon Web Services (AWS), Microsoft Azure, and Google Compute Platform (GCP)
- Extensive technical experience with virtualization, especially Red Hat Virtualization, VMware vSphere, Microsoft Hyper-V, and Citrix XenServer; VMware Certified Professional certification is a plus
- Solid debugging, troubleshooting, and general problem-solving skills
- Great customer service skills and desire to make users successful
- Positive attitude, ability to work as part of a team, and excellent written and verbal communication skills
- Deep understanding of working with DISA, FISMA, NIST, and STIG security guidelines and how to adhere to them
- Experience working within the US Department of Defense (DoD) and US Intelligence Community (IC)
- Ability to make on-site customer visits
The following are considered a plus:
- Practical experience with Red Hat Satellite or similar systems-management technologies
- Experience with Red Hat Ansible Automation Platform or other IT automation and configuration management tools like Puppet or Chef
- Experience with datacenter automation tools and processes
- System administration or datacenter architecture experience
- Windows system administration
- Ruby, Python, or PowerShell programming experience
- Ability to study and learn quickly and put new topics into practice
- Passion for open source software
#LI-REMOTE #LI-AL2
The salary range for this position is $138,350.00 - $228,310.00. Actual offer will be based on your qualifications.
Pay Transparency
Red Hat determines compensation based on several factors including but not limited to job location, experience, applicable skills and training, external market value, and internal pay equity. Annual salary is one component of Red Hat’s compensation package. This position may also be eligible for bonus, commission, and/or equity. For positions with Remote-US locations, the actual salary range for the position may differ based on location but will be commensurate with job duties and relevant work experience.
About Red Hat
Red Hat is the world’s leading provider of enterprise open source software solutions, using a community-powered approach to deliver high-performing Linux, cloud, container, and Kubernetes technologies. Spread across 40+ countries, our associates work flexibly across work environments, from in-office, to office-flex, to fully remote, depending on the requirements of their role. Red Hatters are encouraged to bring their best ideas, no matter their title or tenure. We’re a leader in open source because of our open and inclusive environment. We hire creative, passionate people ready to contribute their ideas, help solve complex problems, and make an impact.
Benefits
- Comprehensive medical, dental, and vision coverage
- Flexible Spending Account - healthcare and dependent care
- Health Savings Account - high deductible medical plan
- Retirement 401(k) with employer match
- Paid time off and holidays
- Paid parental leave plans for all new parents
- Leave benefits including disability, paid family medical leave, and paid military leave
- Additional benefits including employee stock purchase plan, family planning reimbursement, tuition reimbursement, transportation expense account, employee assistance program, and more!
Note: These benefits are only applicable to full time, permanent associates at Red Hat located in the United States.
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Thanks I’m gonna have a deeper look into this then😇
(source)
But it’s a good starting point. Better than inventing everything from the scratch.
I read the sovereign to mean something like an unified platform for EU institutions, that you can dev and train people on.
dependent on the whims of a US defense contractor like RedHat/IBM
A very good point.
Shame that Brexit happened, otherwise they could go with Canonical’s Ubuntu
Why restrict it to EU and not Europe?
Or better still, somehow make it universal and not subject to the whims of one political nutbar.
I’m not sure if this is satire, because if yes, well played, if not, Fuck That.
Based on a US distro whose versions are supported for 1 year, and “built to the requirements for the EU public sector” (because the EU public sector has one coherent set of requirements and the dev knows them, even if he doesn’t list them out).
This is most probably good-intentioned and it is admirable how the dev sprung into action, but it’s naive at best.
I thought it was naive as well, but because they based it on a mayfly distro that has really great validation and reliability but it’s gone in a fortnight.
Wither Almalinix or Cloudlinux or PCLinuxOS or Mandriva? Three of them have really solid support structures and at least one of them has amazing compatibility options with libraries for services.
There are options. A few of them could be better than fedora while fedora is still owned by redhat as redhat dies from suffocation – hell, its all just fucking ancillary bull (Ansible) they sell now, as its metastatic cancer (Systemd) eats it alive.
