Trump is even worse than Biden on Gaza. I get trying to push Biden to do better, but let’s all keep the truth in mind. The actual truth, not the click bait bullshit horse race covered by the media.
Electoral pressure is literally the only lever we have to push Biden to do better. There’s no other way. Biden’s team is making a bet that we aren’t serious and that they can just use Trump to hold us hostage in the party.
So! No ceasefire, no votes. If this war is still going on by November, and Netanyahu has been saying it will, I will not vote for Biden.
It’s so easy to earn our votes! Why is Biden sabotaging his own campaign?
Electoral pressure is literally the only lever we have to push Biden to do better. There’s no other way.
This is correct, barring revolution.
Biden’s team is making a bet that we aren’t serious and that they can just use Trump to hold us hostage in the party.
You are incorrect. Biden’s team, under the direction of the Democrat party, have taken away your lever because they don’t want to win. The Democrats have said this, publicly. They said back in 2016 that they would rather lose to Trump than win with Bernie. The Democrat party is happy to lose, always.
To say that they don’t want to win is to imply a secret conspiracy to lose, but that’s not what we see. With Hillary, they didn’t conspire to make Hillary lose. They really did want her to win! They didn’t want Bernie to win because he wasn’t a Democrat. Winning with Bernie would have fundamentally changed their shitty party, they didn’t want that. That’s just lose/lose for them.
If this analogy applies, if they would rather lose the election than stop doing genocide, then death to America. I won’t give a shit about who wins, hopefully whoever wins destroys this shithole.
To say that they don’t want to win is to imply a secret conspiracy to lose, but that’s not what we see
It’s EXACTLY what we see. 40 years of campaigning on Roe v Wade as law, zero moves to make it happen. Spending their own fundraising on Republican opponents. Espousing positions that people want but never actually following through. Compromising before negotiating. Democrats make their money from Wall St, just like Republicans do, so they have to lie about wanting to win for progressives to vote for them, but they don’t actually want to win because then they’ll be exposed. When they have a majority, it’s always a small majority and there’s always one to three Democrats that adopt the “spoiler” role, either switching sides, going independent, pretending to be a Blue Dog, or lying about the will of their own constituents being opposed to Democrat positions.
With Hillary, they didn’t conspire to make Hillary lose.
They conspired to lose the election. Not to make Hillary lose, but to choose the person who polled terribly, to choose the positions that wouldn’t mobilize the voters, etc.
They didn’t want Bernie to win because he wasn’t a Democrat
No True Scotsman fallacy coupled with a completely ahistorical view. Bernie has been a major part of the party for a very long time. The man is an imperialist through and through. He’s very useful to them as a Democrat, specifically, he’s useful to attract progressive voters and they can always throw an election by the way they manage him. Very few people in the party are like that. Hillary is like that for them too, though less progressive and more violent. But all they have to do is treat Hillary badly and alienate a huge amount of voters.
Winning with Bernie would have fundamentally changed their shitty party
No it wouldn’t have. Because general voters don’t elect party leadership, and the president doesn’t suddenly become the head of the party. The party would have been fine ideologically. Their problem was that Bernie would hurt their donors.
If this analogy applies, if they would rather lose the election than stop doing genocide, then death to America. I won’t give a shit about who wins, hopefully whoever wins destroys this shithole.
They would rather lose than stop doing the genocide. The country is built on genocide - non-stop genocide. Just go look up how many people the USA killed in each military action after WW2. Then go look at how many indigenous people they killed here. Then try to find the numbers for how many slaves they killed. Just for comparison, the very tiny island of Haiti was replacing around 50,000 slaves (because they were being worked to death) annually. During the Haitian revolt, hundreds were gassed by the French in the bottom of slave ships. And that’s just the KILLING. Then you’ve got the erasure of language, child separation policies, which you know about now but literally follow an unbroken line all the back to before the founding of the country, because separating kids from their parents is how you kill an entire social culture, forced sterilization of 1/3 of Puerto Rico and of indigenous and Black people was happening through the 1970s. Both parties are aware. They participated. They think it’s fine. They think it’s correct. They fucking paid the slave owners for property losses but refuse to pay reparations to those enslaved or their descendants.
The USA is a genocidal settler colony that asserted its own leadership, live a cancer that broke free from its host and now lives independently. All the politicians are engaged, fully or partially, in ongoing centuries of genocide.
No True Scotsman fallacy coupled with a completely a historical view. Bernie has been a major part of the party for a very long time. The man is an imperialist through and through. He’s very useful to them as a Democrat, specifically, he’s useful to attract progressive voters and they can always throw an election by the way they manage him. Very few people in the party are like that. Hillary is like that for them too, though less progressive and more violent. But all they have to do is treat Hillary badly and alienate a huge amount of voters.
This is like accusing an Welshman of being a Scotsman. He literally isn’t a Democrat. That’s his whole brand and his function to the party.
He is a major part of the party and certainly a useful idiot, but because he literally isn’t a Democrat isn’t allowed to be an important part of the party. His job is to be a sheepdog and shepherd us back into the polls for Democrats, he isn’t supposed to actually lead the party.
Also… are you implying they treated Hillary badly and caused her to lose on purpose? That’s a pretty wild accusation lol
No it wouldn’t have. Because general voters don’t elect party leadership, and the president doesn’t suddenly become the head of the party. The party would have been fine ideologically. Their problem was that Bernie would hurt their donors.
That’s a contradiction. If the party was fine ideologically then Bernie couldn’t hurt donors because that runs counter to their ideology.
Bernie would certainly hurt their donors, and that itself would fundamentally change the party because it would change who the financial backers of the party are - but you’re also ignoring how Trump very clearly changed the Republican party (yes, I know Republicans were always fascists, but they were cryptofascists before they stopped hiding behind dogwhistles). The very demographic base of the party changed because of who the president was, and now those “”“respectable”“” Republicans that Democrats love so much are on the outside of the party’s base. Bernie, if he had been allowed to win, would have changed the voter base and the financial base. They’d rather lose than have that.
This is all a ridiculous hypothetical, of course, because Democrats would rather lose than let Bernie win. But that’s it! They didn’t want Hillary to lose, they really wanted her to win - but they wanted her to win with her unpopular platform that caused them to lose. Her platform wasn’t intended to lose, though, and they didn’t give her an unpopular platform to make her lose. You’re really putting the cart before the horse here.
They would rather lose than stop doing the genocide.
It certainly looks that way, but that doesn’t mean they want to lose for its own sake. I’m not sure what you’re even arguing here.
It sounds like you’re saying that Biden supports the Zionist’s genocide literally because he wants to lose. As if this is a wedge issue that Democrats inflicted on themselves intentionally because they don’t want to be in power anymore.
It sounds like you’re saying that Biden supports the Zionist’s genocide literally because he wants to lose. As if this is a wedge issue that Democrats inflicted on themselves intentionally because they don’t want to be in power anymore.
No no, I’m saying the genocide is more important than winning. And if he has to lose in order for the genocide to continue under Trump, then they want to lose.
I see what you’re saying now, but I think they want to win and also continue supporting genocide at the same time. They’re actually ideologues that really believe they can have their cake and eat it too. They don’t actually want to lose and will be very surprised when it happens.
In order for them to actually be planning to lose it would require a lot of people to secretly agree to lose. I don’t think that’s happening. I think those people are delusionally confident and actually really believe they’re going to win. Maybe I’m underestimating their intelligence lol
The trouble you guys face is Trump is worse.
Just on Israel-Palestine alone, Trump is the person that recognised Jerusalem as Israel’s capital city. If that isn’t informative about his attitude about the situation…
Yeah, and that’s Biden’s fault, not the voters. He is letting an unqualified candidate beat him because he won’t stop funding the war on Gaza.
If the choices are genocide lite and genocide deluxe, the only answer is for America to be defeated. MLs call it revolutionary defeatism.
Don’t know why you have downvotes, this is sound logic, trump will embolden Israel even more while fucking up a lot of other important stuff e.g. Ukraine
While I have serious issues with Biden on Israel, he really has no ability to force a ceasefire. (Short of sending US troops in to enforce it, and that would be a terrible idea.).
Biden could pull all US support for Israel, but that would create a power vacuum that China or (more likely) Russia would gladly fill. It still wouldn’t end the genocide, but it would put a wedge between Iran and the Palestinians. (Iran is their only powerful ally.)
Biden’s rhetoric needs to change, and we need Israel to feel some real heat for their actions, but the US doesn’t have Israel on a leash.
Biden could pull all US support for Israel, but that would create a power vacuum that China or (more likely) Russia would gladly fill.
You people have no morals, Jesus Christ.
Anyone who starts a sentence with “you people” has likely got some morality issues of their own.
Foreign policy has to account for all the consequences of any decision, including counter moves. As a “friend of Israel” the US has some influence (less and less it would seem). From the outside we would have none whatsoever.
While I have serious issues with Biden on Israel, he really has no ability to force a ceasefire. (Short of sending US troops in to enforce it, and that would be a terrible idea.).
Did you forget about the UN Security Council votes? The ones the US ruined?
No, that is one of the serious issues, but I also know that UN security council votes would make no difference whatsoever.
How do you know that? It’s probably the best chance we have, surely?
Resolutions against further settlement were completely ignored. Ultimately, UN resolutions rely on a willingness to use military force if necessary. There is no interest in that, and there shouldn’t be. That would certainly spread the conflict.
There actually was a successful vote on humanitarian aid, and that aid is being largely blocked by Israel.
It seems like the problem is with UN security council resolutions not being enforced, so why make it look like America is the issue? Why not give it the best chance? Hell If you cared about the well being of your fellow human beings (controversial I know) wouldn’t you be approving resolutions and then fighting to get them implemented? If they ignore it you can fucking sanction them. Use it to justify stopping arms sales and aid.
America cannot escape their responsibility for this, IMO. If they’d voted for a cease fire and Israel had ignored it, it would be Israel’s fault. The way it stands America shares the blame, whether they like it or not.
Trump is worse than Biden on anything and everything. But if any president can get away with supporting a genocide campaign, is this not the way they get away with it? By simply claiming it will ruin their campaign efforts?
It’s sad ppl only read your first sentence and then are fully satisfied with whatever shit you throw on, as long as you don’t specifically say ‘Biden is really bad’
I think it’s Biden’s responsibility to not support genocide, he owes it to his voters, and if he wants to keep them, he needs to change.
A president has already gotten away with it. Trying to selectively punish Biden now is actually a bit of hypocrisy. We should have done it in the first place. But we largely got in that position because of people who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Clinton, etc.
Biden’s moves are optically bad. But make a lot of sense as far as strategy goes. Traditionally. You have a much more powerful position to bargain as an ally than as an enemy. But that does not stop people like yourself from making hyperbolic claims.
Don’t get me wrong. Eileen, libertarian and communist. I have no real investment in Biden. I’m simply intelligent enough to know that he or Trump are going to win. And that he is by far the better choice. Which you yourself said. You just want to make some example of him despite your own face etc.
Biden’s moves are optically bad. But make a lot of sense as far as strategy goes
What an unspeakably evil thing to say about genocide.
We should have done it in the first place. But we largely got in that position because of people who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Clinton, etc.
As if Hillary Clinton would have punished anybody.
Israel is doing it. Not Biden. But hypocritical critique coming from an ML domain is to be expected. Soviet Union slaughtered millions. China is actually directly causing genocide too. Now one country committing genocide is never an excuse for another country to do it. But leave it to a Marxist linenist to be a blazing hypocrite. Take your hollow virtue signaling elsewhere.
Israel is doing it. Not Biden.
Biden is pouring weapons into it.
Soviet Union slaughtered millions.
Those poor Nazi soldiers!
China is actually directly causing genocide too
Really? How many people have died?
Now one country committing genocide is never an excuse for another country to do it.
You probably should have just tried to use it as one then.
Unfortunately, the Democrats keep going back to the well of “what are you going to do, vote for the other guy?” Their success on this has been hit or miss the last few cycles. In fairness, it’s been a viable strategy in the past, if Democrats can get those few persuadable voters in the middle of the political spectrum to vote Democratic and not Republican, that’s a net win for the Democratic candidate. But, that begs the question of “are there enough persuadable voters left to offset losses when parts of your base stay home?” With Biden’s continued support for Israel’s actions, it seems that their political calculus says, “yes”.
However, we’ve seen this go both ways in the last few cycles. Clinton deployed the tactic in 2016 and commenters were out in force to brow-beat any of the deplorables who offered anything less than a full-thoated support of her turn. It got her the popular vote, but that has never mattered, she lost the election. The “vote blue no matter who” force was on full display again in 2020 and managed to eek out a win. And here you are again, ramping up for 2024. It’s going to be interesting to see how it works out this time.
Biden in 2020 had the advantage of being somewhat unknown. Everyone knew him as Obama’s Vice President and that provided him some of Obama’s popularity. This time around, he’s much more of a known quantity and he’s going to be running on his own record. Brow-beating people with “anyone but Trump” seems less likely to work when voters may be looking at specific policies and actions which they find at odds with their beliefs. When Biden was more of an unknown, it was easy for voters to map their own views onto him. We see this with polls which include “generic Democrat/Republican” as an option. People map their own views onto the “generic” view and so are more supportive. When a candidate becomes a known quantity, support can drop off, as the voters know which areas they agree and disagree with a particular politician. In the same way, Biden’s policies are now more understood by the voters and people may be less inclined to support him based on those policies.
Personally, I’m doubtful this sort of brow-beating is going to work this cycle. Biden’s popularity isn’t fantastic and he’s too well known for people to map their views onto him. Moreover, responding to people being upset with his actions with a brow-beating seems like a poor response to peoples’ legitimate issues. It seems more likely to convince them to disengage or push back even harder. Sure, what are they going to do, vote for the other guy? No, probably not, but they may also not show up on election day. And with the closely divided state of the US electorate, that might just be enough to swing things the other way.
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Since when is Centrist defined as “I will shutdown the border as soon as you sign that bill”, “More kids in cages than the last guy”, “No prosecutions for leaders who incite a violent coup”, “More weapons for genocide”, “Let’s destroy the economy of our allies”, “We must keep the torture center at Guantanamo open”, “Who’s Epstein?”, “No I won’t pardon Peltier”, “No I won’t commute sentence of political prisoners”, “Yes, more black people in jail”, “Yes, it’s OK for prisoners to produce $11Bn in goods for private companies through slave labor”, “I swear we’ll do something about women’s health but it won’t be part of our political platform for the election”.
All of the evidence says we have the same two groups of white supremacist leaders we have always had: the plantation owners who bought the slaves, and the financiers who sold the slaves. You want to claim that the financiers are “centrist” in that formulation because they don’t personally whip people?
There’s nothing centrist about the Democrats
I get trying to push Biden to do better
Do you, as a group, though?
Every time someone posts an article about how it’s a bad thing that Biden is actively contributing to a genocide, the top comment is Trump whataboutism.
Yes, Trump is much worse, both on Israel and in general, but that’s not the fucking point!
Biden ain’t doing shit. He’s gonna go to Michigan and lie, then he’s going to maintain the same policies the US has for decades. It’s silly to think otherwise. And so it goes.
Trump is much worse, both on Israel and in general, but that’s not the fucking point!
Except that the only two actual choices for the next 4 year cycle are Trump and Biden. Do that really us the point.
Putting your progressive politics focus on the president is a losing game, anyway. Praxis is local.
Wouldn’t this energy be better invested in getting Biden to stop supporting the Israeli genocide so that his Arab and Muslim voters don’t abandon him?
When it comes to American politics and actually affecting change, I think the energy is best invested in supporting progressive candidates from the bottom (local) up (national). Go to the primaries and vote for any candidate you can that is closer to your views if there are any. But when the time comes to vote for Biden, Trump, or abstain, anything other than voting for Biden is a vote for Trump, who is far worse in every conceivable way.
Anyone who votes for Biden deserves Trump.
Anyone who doesn’t vote Biden deserves trump.
K. Still not voting for your genocidal ghoul.
I didn’t realize the primary was over.
It’s funny how that and the fact that the Democratic party has already, against it’s own rules, removed all candidates other than Biden from the ballots in 10% of the States never gets brought up.
Instead we get a bunch of people posting in an attempt to shame people into voting for someone who supports genocide because ‘what else are you going to do’
I wish the Democratic party acted like Trump was the existential threat we all recognize him to be.
So as long as he’s marginally better than a deranged fascist rapist, criticism of him isn’t allowed at all?
Fuck off with that authoritarianism bullshit!
I definitely feel like so many actual democrats are starting to show similar signs as MAGAts did. It’s been there to an extent, but holy shit is it getting bad. Now it’s either love him or you’re a borderline terrible person.
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Um, what? How are you entirely unaware of the Trump administration’s support of Saudi Arabia commiting genocide in Yemen while Saudi officials dumped loads of cash at Trump resorts?
Just for the records, the same Yemen genocide that Biden continued to support and the same Yemen that he is now directly bombing?
Check your facts.
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2A4267/
The airstrikes against Houthi Militants are a mistake in my opinion, but they are also justified and have been exemplary in their avoidance of civilian casualties. They cannot be likened to genocide.
On foreign policy the US remains a genocidal bully with questionable morals and alliances. But domestically the Democrats present a veneer of somewhat moral, inclusive values. So with the presented choice I would recommend to go with the seemingly moral guy and try to hold him accountable, rather than vote for the fascist maniac that acts the same domestically and foreign.
Just hope you get locally active to organize a stronger left for the future.
Anyone who will support genocide overseas for their own domestic comfort doesn’t deserve to be comfortable.
And you are not going to “hold him accountable” and you know it.
He’s not my president. Can’t do much but protest here and hold my own representatives accountable.
I can’t fault anyone for not voting for a war criminal.
The Canadian Conservative party is the one that usually runs on “imagine/look at how bad the other guy would be” as a party platform. It’s a bad look and a sign that you have nothing better. It’s politicking for the sake of politicking.
It is a bad look and a sign of a lack of good options, but that’s the situation.
Also, all Canadian parties run like that except for the Greens and the Bloc, and it’s probably because they know they won’t form a government
Why does CNN put genocide in quotes in the article after the international court has already ruled that the actions in Gaza meet the definition?
“Journalistic integrity”
PS: but also what the other person said.
Technically, they only ruled that genocide is plausible enough to hear the case (and that South Africa has a right to bring the case).
Guys. Vote in your interests. Sure Biden might be a complicit war criminal but the other guy is a domestic criminal who would be an enthusiastic war criminal given half a chance.
Secure your country from the Putin’s pet orangutan for another four years, then rake Biden across the coals.
If we’re lucky, we won’t have to deal with either of them in 2028.
Could Americans, just for once, take responsibility for their own shitty politicians and politics, rather than blaming it on foreigners? This “foreign agent” bullshit is basically the same kind of conspiracy theory scape goating that Republicans do with Qanon, and it’s just as fascist as anything Trump is saying.
I agree with you and I’d like to point out we’ve done studies and found that “Russiagate” in 2016 was a big nothingburger. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/01/09/russian-trolls-twitter-had-little-influence-2016-voters/
Democrats don’t want to hear it, though, because it’s a very convenient excuse for their own failings. Just like them blaming Bernie Bros, despite Bernie supporters voting for Clinton in larger numbers than Clinton supporters voted for Obama 8 years prior.
They simply don’t want to take responsibility for their own actions (and inaction).
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There are a lot of reasons to be suspicious about trump when it comes to colluding with foreign powers, and there is even some evidence. I agree that people often take it too far, into the conspiracy theory territory. But I don’t think it’s quite comparable with QAnon, either in feasibility, or in scope, or in the problematic effects that it may have.
Also, the American system is, at best, only semi-democratic. The politicians are the ones who determine who is in power, much more than the people who actually vote. Are the citizens really responsible for what politicians we have? Am I responsible, as a man who votes conscientiously, who has campaigned during important elections, and yet does not have any real influence in who gets elected? Is the average person, who is just barely getting by, really expected to change the system by themselves?
We need systemic change, but we have no class consciousness, and we are not likely to get there. These facts are manipulated by the people in power.
I don’t know what country you live in but that sure is a lot of words that don’t really mean anything.
Can you please elaborate on what the “foreign agent bullshit” you’re talking about is?
And can you please also explain how said bullshit is akin to how republicans are blaming Qanaon? (And also please explain what republicans are “blaming” Qanon for, as it’s my understanding that most republicans are followers of Qanon, not critics.)
If you are a bot account I am sorry for putting you through the wringer as it’s my first day.
that sure is a lot of words that don’t really mean anything.
What was the rest of your comment in reference to then?
Hey yeah, I should stop picking on that Putin guy! 😁
I said Trump was Putin’s pet. He’s a foreign agent only by happenstance and perhaps through manipulation.
To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside.
- Umberto Eco, Ur-Fascism
And Trump is Putin’s pet.
Nazi’s blame all their problems on a grand Jewish conspiracy, BlueMAGA blame it on a grand Russian one. Ultimately they’re both fascists.
Why do you think a conspiracy is necessary for Trump to be Putin’s pet?
You seem to be convinced that I’m some kind of conspiracy theorist but I already told you I think Trump is a “Russian agent” through happenstance.
Why do you think a conspiracy is necessary for Trump to be Putin’s pet?
…
Blueanon is beyond parody.
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My favourite genre of post: present a strawman in the form of a question, then scoff at how ridiculous the strawman question is.
How is it a straw man? It’s a clear implication of your words. Explain how else your position could be interpreted.
It’s a clear implication of your words
“You didn’t say it, but I have decided it’s what you meant” Totally not a strawman
Explain how else your position could be interpreted.
Try actually reading what I said, rather than trying to concoct some absurd, bad faith ‘interpretation.’
So… When your choices are between two war criminals, your first thought isn’t that the system needs change but that we should vote for the war criminal with a track record of war crimes?
The system needs to change, but with one of those criminals it’s slow progress in the right direction and with the other it’s a sprint towards fascism. Take your pick.
At least there was opposition to Trump when he did his fascism. Biden is literally funding, arming, and defending the modern day holocaust and liberals are still flocking to support him. Anyone who votes for him is just as complicit in the genocide as he is, just as the Germans liberals who voted for the Nazi party were. How are you lot still not-seeing the full picture??
Anyone who votes for him is just as complicit in the genocide as he is
What country do you think you live in?? Your entire population has been complicit and BENEFITTED from atrocities perpetrated by your government for decades! Now it’s finally so bad that you can see it and what is the solution? Fuck Biden. Let’s have Trump. Blow it all up. Let it all burn.
No, you fix what you have. Because power vacuums get filled by the most ruthless person on the block, always.
Looking for where I said “vote for the other genocidal fascist”: 0/0 results found
Face it, you’re complicit in genocide. None of the other context changes that.
You don’t have to vote for the other genocidal facist to let him become the president. Poor voter turnout will work just as well.
But go ahead, ignore the rest of the context and cherry pick the thing you think you have a response to.
Well I’m not voting for Trump, so I guess I’m letting Biden win.
Man, the cognitive dissonance Americans must have to deal with.
Sorry you had to find out this way, but it’s been going on for most of your lives if you’d only cared out the rest of the world enough to look past your own borders.
It’s called american exceptionalism and this idea that you can just blow it up by voting for (or not voting against) the orange guy is just another example of it.
Fixing what you have is hard work. Burning it all down is a child’s response and will fuck the rest of the world up.
slow progress in the right direction
lol
Freudian slip 😄
Great contribution to the conversation. Laugh if you want, but voting for Democrats in general elections and voting progressive in primaries is the only way this country will make any progress. Push for ranked choice and other non-FPTP voting systems to get people better representation.
voting for Democrats in general elections and voting progressive in primaries is the only way this country will make any progress
Submitted without comment, without evidence, and without self-awareness. Hate to break it to you, but the only reason you say that is because you’ve been trained to say it through years of socialization in a white supremacist settler state. The actions you described have led the USA to its current position. When was the last time a Republican president won more votes than the Democrat candidate who lost? The last time was GWB in his second term by .7%, and that was 3 years after 9/11. Before that it was Public sentiment doesn’t matter. Voting doesn’t change anything. The USA hasn’t been a democracy for a long while:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6w9CbemhVY
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=U6w9CbemhVY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
But there has been no progress during my lifetime (well not here and not in the US, there might have been some progress in other parts of the world). In fact, whenever we had “left”-liberals in power here in Germany, the march towards the right only accelerated, as they adopted right-wing neoliberal policies and took at least part their base with them over to the right, and the rest gets marginalized. We’ve had some fatal damage done to the welfare state, worker’s rights and the anti-war movement, all by the social democrats and greens.
Your affirmation that there is “slow progress” is clearly not true. There was some progress before I was born, but as far as I can tell, that had nothing at all to do with voting for the lesser evil.
Are we talking about the US or Germany? And how long have you been alive? Things like legalized gay marriage, legalized marijuana (not federally but in many states), healthcare that can’t deny people because of pre-existing conditions are all examples of progress that have come in the last 15 years. There’s still a long way to go even on those things I mentioned, but ignoring that progress is needlessly pessimistic.
Sure but it’s always like one small step forward and two large steps back. Abortion was made illegal in many states. US domestic surveillance of its own citizens has increased dramatically and gone unchallenged. Housing and healthcare costs have continued to outpace wage growth. Inequality has increased unabated. Green energy remains woefully underfunded. I could go on.
Agreed. Trump’s recent rhetoric has been about dictatorship not presidency. It increasingly appears like a trump win would be the last election for a while.
Sadly, frustratingly, infuriatingly true.
When is your election and what is your plan to “change the system” before then?
Remember when the professionals were saying that Trump was an incompetent fascist and we should be worried about is the competent fascist that would come after him? Biden is that competent fascist. If Trump did half of what Biden did, it would be because he fucked it up half way.
Biden is actually the current figurehead of a very effective facist machine, imo, but I still don’t want someone as incompetent as the alternative running the USA. That shit has a major affect on the rest of the world.
First you prevent the orange man from taking office and further accelerating the deterioration of international order – please – then you can look into your own country’s issues, among which are milking conflict for profit and power (my country is the same, we’re just smaller. I’m looking into it!)
Remember, Biden is carrying on the status quo. The USA has a long history of letting shit slide with Israel, long before Biden. It’s just that Bibi is an evil trapped rat who has inadvertently “blown up Biden’s game.”
First you prevent the orange man from taking office and further accelerating the deterioration of international order
‘You need to vote Biden to protect American hegemony’ is not particularly persuasive.
If you need me to persuade you to participate in your election, I can’t help you.
If you really think 4 more years under Trump is preferable, I can’t help you.
If you need me to persuade you to participate in your election, I can’t help you.
Yeah, no kidding; Genocide Joe supporters are definitely having trouble persuading people to vote for him. That said “vote for Biden because he’s a more competent fascist” is maybe the worst pitch yet.
Enjoy! Disenfranchised voters are an autocrat’s dream. Can’t say I blame you, though.
Disenfranchised voters are an autocrat’s dream.
So are grand conspiracies that blame all of a nation’s problems on a foreign scapegoat.
When will sweet death take them?
Hopefully before it takes us
Imagine thinking you’ll even be able to legally protest if Trump is president.
Pelosi is already directing the FBI to investigate pro-Palestine protestors https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/pelosi-fbi-pro-palestine-protesters-russia-1234955648/
Is this what we can expect for every criticism of the Biden administration for the next year? All you are really telling swing voters is that their opinion is irrelevant. What do you think that will do for turnout? Why do you think the administration itself isn’t making use of this brilliant electoral strategy? When Trump wins, you can thank the guy in the mirror.
Did I say their opinion is irrelevant? I said, like last time, Trump will attack them and try to outlaw protests while working for the highest bidder. It’s not an attempt at swaying, it’s stating fact. You don’t get change by replacing the status quo guy with a straight up fascist.
If ever criticism is met with “But Trump…”, then you are making their opinion irrelevant. There will always be a worse Republican.
Trump will attack them and try to outlaw protests
Pelosi is currently calling for protests to be suppressed. I care more about what politicians are actually doing than what you imagine they are going to do in your CNN addled brain
It’s stating fact
It literally is not, you’re just speculating.
You don’t get change by replacing the status quo guy with a straight up fascist.
Fascism is the status quo.
Pelosi is currently calling for protests to be suppressed. I care more about what politicians are actually doing than what you imagine they are going to do in your CNN addled brain
I don’t watch CNN, but I did watch Trump call for the National guard to deal with protesters and tear gas them for a photo op.
It literally is not, you’re just speculating.
It’s fact, based on his track record.
Fascism is the status quo.
Maybe, but I’ll take “maybe fascism” over full on Christofascism.
At least Biden’s not tear gassing protesters to take a picture holding a Bible for masturbating Christofascists.
Btw, I’m in no way a Biden supporter, but I’ll be fucked if I support Trump.
It was also reported by the New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/us/politics/nancy-pelosi-fbi-russia-gaza-protesters.html
but I did watch Trump call for the National guard to deal with protesters and tear gas them for a photo op.
So what you’re saying is he didn’t do anything to ‘outlaw protesting’ he just did the thing that presidents could already do.
It’s fact, based on his track record.
It literally hasn’t happened. It by definition isn’t a fact.
Maybe, but I’ll take “maybe fascism” over full on Christofascism.
And that makes you a fascist.
At least Biden’s not tear gassing protesters
… Are you… Are you serious? Have you not read any news? He is literally helping to massacre tens of thousands of innocent civilians.
Not the sharpest knife in drawer eh?
Trump was president!
My god, liberals really are all like the guy from Memento
Meanwhile, Pelosi is calling for anyone protesting their genocide to be investigated as Russian agents.
And when he was president he regularly tried to outlaw protests, tear gasses them, etc. Not to mention a Trump presidency costed Roe v Wade and stacked the supreme Court with bought and sold Christofascists. I didn’t say he never was president, I said he’ll straight up outlaw protests the next time he is, which he was well on his way to doing the last time.
And when he was president they regularly tried to outlaw protests, tear gasses them, etc.
Pure vibes. The Trump administration was no worse for protests than any other administration in my life time.
Not to mention a Trump presidency costed Roe v Wade
Yeah, great job there, Biden.
stacked the supreme Court with bought and sold Christofascists.
The Democrats literally let the Republicans have two of those seats.
I said he’ll straight up outlaw protests the next time he is
Want to make a bet on it?
which he was well on his way to doing the last time.
Lol no.
Pure vibes. The Trump administration was no worse for protests than any other administration in my life time.
Are you a small child? He literally tear gassed protesters to take a photo op.
Yeah, great job there, Biden.
Nope. Trump’s admin.
The Democrats literally let the Republicans have two of those seats.
They didn’t have the house, plus they’re not great, but they’re better than Trump.
Want to make a bet on it?
It’s not a game and I’m not a child. He will.
Lol no.
Lol yeah, he literally wanted to call in the National guard, you can look it up.
Are you a small child?
Are you? Have you never watched any news or read any US history books?
Nope. Trump’s admin.
Check those dates again, matey.
They didn’t have the house
Neither did the Republicans for two of them.
And the Dems absolutely did have the house when they decided not to have RBG retire.
Lol yeah, he literally wanted to call in the National guard, you can look it up.
You’re using an example of Trump not outlawing protests as evidence that he did.
It’s not a game and I’m not a child. He will.
Put your money where your mouth is then, coward.
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Yes, you’re unwilling to accept reality. We can see that.
Pronouns are: get/fucked
My god, and you people say Trump is the fascist.
What does this comment mean in this thread?
It means that accusations of fascism ring pretty hollow from people who have created their own version of “all our opponents are secretly agents of the Judeo-Bolshevics”
I’m not saying that anywhere LoL. Although now that you bring him up, that’s a clear recent example of how easily influenced Americans are by foreign influence.
Yeah yeah, ‘everyone who disagrees with you is actually part of massive conspiracy by our great nation’s “”“enemies”“”’. I’ve heard it all before: I’m familiar with the fascist belief system.
Interesting how when the shoe is on the other foot, y’all start to sound a whole lot like Trump did back when he was… rightfully accused.
We know people are being paid to show up, we can see the professionalism in the media they’re using but you aren’t at all curious about where that money’s coming from? Canada is literally investigating foreign influence on their elections right now, America has found interference in theirs but because your cause du jour is being keyed on, it’s fascism to want to know more?
Fascinating watching this all unfold.
Trump would probably bomb the shit out of Palestine.
Then the result is the same. Thanks, Biden.
Biden isn’t sending drones to bomb Palestine, to my knowledge. I’m saying that Trump would do that. If Trump were in power, it would probably be worse.
Not to excuse Biden, and his complete apathy for this ongoing genocide. It is unexcusable, and no one who tolerates genocide should be allowed anywhere near politics.
Biden isn’t sending drones to bomb Palestine, to my knowledge.
He bypassed Congress to send weapons to Israel. I think similar shit happened on several occasions, and it’s not nearing an end. What’s the difference? American tax money all the same.
I don’t think you will find anyone on this thread who supports Trump or thinks Trump will not be “worse”.
EDIT: wait, one second, seems like Biden actually may literally have done what you suggested: https://theintercept.com/2024/01/11/israel-air-force-targeting-intelligence/. And apparently the “hold my beer as I bypass the congress” happened twice
I guess he litterally sending both drones and bombs, but I meant that Trump would order a direct strike. But you’re right, that’s not much different in the end, is it? The main difference is that Biden maintains some plausible deniability. “WE didn’t kill anyone! We didn’t know they would use these tools for genocide!”. Maybe in some sense that IS worse.
Deep in my heart, I just hope both Trump and Biden get heart attacks before the elections kick off. Voters would get a fresh choice then.
I’m afraid that in our current political system, voters would get a fresh choice of candidates who would probably still send weapons to Israel. Somehow we need deeper political change.
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When Trump was president suddenly all the atrocities of the Obama presidency weren’t acceptable. Now that Biden is president it’s all fine again. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather a public that is paying attention and thus limiting the president from being able to facilitate genocide.
Things are changing, if slowly. People are paying attention, and they are pissed at Biden.
It’s already been decimated. By Joe Biden.
If you think that’s a good enough argument, you are severely mistaken.
Yeah so vote for the guy that will bomb them even more AND ALSO fuck our own country and our own people.
As if voting for Trump will end up better somehow. Trump would bomb Americans if they said something that hurt his feelings.
Literally no one said that.
I love how this is literally the only response libs have. Can’t criticize Biden on anything because Trump is worse. Now shut up and support our genocider in chief.
There’s a sign in the image for this post that says “don’t make me vote for Trump”
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that people would discuss the submission based on the screenshot as opposed to the actual content of the submission. That said, libs have been telling everyone in the last election that it was critical to elect Biden to stop Trump and for US to change course. After three years of Biden, nothing changed and Trump is more popular than ever. Seems that the policies that Biden admin has been pursuing accomplished exact opposite of what was promised.
And all leftists I know from the US are aware of that, but still vote for Biden, since Trump would do so much damage. Not voting for Democrats as a leftist is accelerationist bullshit. You can perform direct action and also vote against the fascist.
The reason people are responding to the image is because they have the most inane take pushed right into their faces.
also vote against the fascist.
Which one?
Maybe you should look up the definition of fascist and check whose rhetoric and actions align with what happened in Germany a hundred years ago.
“fascism” means something specific. It’s bad that you Americans only have the choice between an average Western neoliberal colonialist and a fascist, but it’s very clear which one is the lesser evil.
The sign in the fucking image does.
Oh, you’re right actually. Sorry. I meant no one in the discussion thread is saying that.
Thank you for owning up to your mistake, sincerely. Not enough people are willing to do that.
I am very upset about the ongoing genocide in Gaza. Netanyahu is an authoritarian, just like Putin, Un, Xi and others. They all want their peasants to live under their dictatorial rule. Just as capitalism begets monopolies, authoritarians beget dictators. I cannot vote for Trump and I think that it would be a terrible for not only for us in the US, but for the whole world.
I wish more people understood that the very last policy that changes in a government is its foreign policy. If you want to change the way the US interacts with the world, we have to change our internal government first. We have a system that only functionally allows a two party solution. Our choices this time around are an openly enthusiastic dictator or someone who has their foreign policy set in the last 75 years. Trump - hell, any Republican is bad - their whole party is all in on dictatorship because they see a threat to white people rule. Biden is, unfortunately, the only threat minimizing choice. What he needs though, is more and more progressive representation in Congress. Importantly, second term presidents tend to be when the big changes are implemented (since they don’t have to run for reelection) as prior to then they are centrist to appeal to a larger voter base (traditionally).
The machinations of government are slow to change - it’s big, things don’t change on a dime. There is no doubt the world is different now and we’re still operating on a playbook that was designed in the 1950’s.
In realistic terms - we vote for Biden and get an opportunity to change policy in a peaceful way. Or we elect Trump wherein the odds of a violent revolution against totalitarian dictators takes foot on our own soil. And us leftists won’t be the ones with the Army’s guns at that point. This is serious, this game of chess is far more complex than I believe most people realize.
I don’t like these choices, but I cannot in good conscience cast a vote for an authoritarian and I believe it wise for everyone to consider the ramifications of that.
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