Context: https://lem.lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/45960248
Image created by @edie@lemmy.encryptionin.space
wait, why did we get lumped in with the communists?
You didnt, only china is considered communist in the original. You’re on the forefront of the communist aggression, as seen with the arrows, because some parts of the fediverse considers you to be/going tankie, and because the user that was the starting domino for this was a db0 user.
Ill never understand why brainlets try to call /0 tankie given how much squabbling and total idealogical disagreement exists between it and the 3 pretty tankie instances.
Tankie is a gradually shifting pejorative for anyone that defends existing socialist states. Dbzer0 straddles the line between tankie/non-tankie because the average stance is less a defense of existing socialism and more towards skepticism towards allegations against existing socialism, which then depends on who is hurling the pejorative.
You’re left of Hilary sadly you’re a tankie. I’m sorry.
Do I at least get a free T72?
No… You need to work as bot for 1 year and send an application form directly to Putin.
When federation and the mass reddit migration happened it was always funny to see people call Hexbear’s anarchists tankies.
Certified commie over here, salute to kittenzrulz123 o7
Now I want a map of lemmy positions
just look at who defederates from whom and you’ll have it.
Taking the original image way literally for a sec, why did nobody question someone from US deciding if cambodia should be communist or not? Shouldn’t cambodians draw that line?
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-3706966075/view
Australian election thingy actually.
Ok that actually makes more sense lmao. I appreciate the fact-check.
She made the original meme, haha.
Tbh, my comment got removed from worldnews.ml just for saying it makes you look extremly bad to be celebrating the deaths of US soldiers in yet another senseless war. I believe the average .ml user to be 15 years old.
US soldiers are not “uwu smol beans” just trying to get free healthcare.
They don’t deserve praise or sympathy for doing their job, which is to further the goals of US imperialists. They deserve accountability and scorn for every drone strike. Every blown up family. Every fucking village they’ve reduced to ash. They are not precious victims. They are the boot on the neck of the world. They are the monsters the children of the global south wake up to at night in terror.
Unlike you and most people trying to convince me every US soldier is a stormtrooper for the empire, I have family in the region and know people directly affected by this war.
I never said that US soldiers are innocent, I just don’t celebrate them dying because I think human life is valuable. Edgeposting online feels very cool but doesn’t do anything to end this conflict. If you were so against US imperialism you would do things like protest at home and tell you representatives you’re against it. Demonizing soldiers online is just childish and immature.
More US soldiers dying will also not let the conflict end sooner which would be the best outcome. Those dozens who have died so far will be replaced by others.
Doesn’t seem to me like this is an extremly pro-US position.
The removal didn’t have an effect sadly you are incapable of learning.
Unlimited death to US soldiers fighting on the wrong side.
it makes you look extremly bad to be celebrating the deaths of Nazi soldiers
You’re simply wrong. Celebrating the deaths of those who voluntarily signed up to be fascist stormtroopers raping, pillaging and war criming their way across the periphery is entirely reasonable. Especially for those of us outside the white supremacist western empire who the stormtroopers are meant to be sicked on.
those of us outside the white supremacist western empire
i suspect that we both can agree that the non-white racial makeup of the ice agents and republicans give the illusion that it’s not a “white” supremacist empire.
i agree with the sentiment shared in your comment and my only quibble is that using “white” – although accurate – detracts from the messaging and i wonder there’s a another term that can be used for the overwhelming majority of westerners that rely on superficial/popular understanding that the word “white” carries with it.
i suspect that we both can agree that the non-white racial makeup of the ice agents and republicans give the illusion that it’s not a “white” supremacist empire.
True however illusions do not change the fact that white supremacy is the bedrock upon which the western liberal hegemonic order is built. All it does is add to the imperative of pointing it out consistently so that said illusion cannot be used as the ideological veil it is intended to be.
i agree with the sentiment shared in your comment and my only quibble is that using “white” – although accurate – detracts from the messaging and i wonder there’s a another term that can be used for the overwhelming majority of westerners that rely on superficial/popular understanding that the word “white” carries with it.
I think it’s best to avoid ceding ground in the realm of thought to the reactionaries, instead focusing on forcing them to see reality as it is. That white is the designated ingroup of the current hegemonic empire.
I think it’s best to avoid ceding ground in the realm of thought to the reactionaries, instead focusing on forcing them to see reality as it is. That white is the designated ingroup of the current hegemonic empire.
i agree with this and i asked my question because the last half century in the west has made it abundantly clear that proselytizing this understanding is woefully inadequate against monied interests, yet most marxists agree that the public must be engaged in this manner nonetheless.
the shift we’ve been seeing in the most recent generations is entirely due to social media live streaming a genocide into peoples homes and now that, that same monied interest has (or are about to) effectively gate keep and capture social media; i fear that this shift will reverse back to the previous dynamic.
i agree with this and i asked my question because the last half century in the west has made it abundantly clear that proselytizing this understanding is woefully inadequate against monied interests, yet most marxists agree that the public must be engaged in this manner nonetheless.
As I understand it the issues in this regard in the west is not that the message or wording is wrong necessarily but simply that it is not accompanied with any action of note (for many reasons) which leaves Marxists mainly as preachers as opposed to leaders and teachers.
now that, that same monied interest has (or are about to) effectively gate keep and capture social media; i fear that this shift will reverse back to the previous dynamic.
Certainly possible but putting this particular genie back in it’s bottle might not be as easy as they wish especially given they are losing ground not only in the ideological front as the decay becomes impossible to ignore but also in material reality where again the decay of the empire and it’s knock on effects become harder and harder to swallow for the average denizen of the imperial core.
All that’s left to see is will the Marxists of the imperial core seize the moment or be swept aside by the rise of the fascists.
the 60% of americans who still don’t believe that the palestinians are being genocided despite that live streaming into their homes suggest that the genie never got the chance to leave the bottle and those same last few decades of the police, cia, fbi, etc. literally bombing, smearing, imprisoning, and executing leftists; along with our institutions providing legal cover for them to do so; also suggest that the imperialists have a winning formula that ensures that any sort of leftist movements die in their cradles.
add to that ice’s presence and european islamophobia taking root into their respective mainstreams also suggest that blame for the material decline will be overwhelmingly placed on the same classic scapegoats. so it seems less like a question of whether or not western marxists can sieze the moment and more like are there enough of them (and are they correctly experienced) to ever doing anything meaningful going forward.
Would you say the same thing about celebrating the deaths of Wehrmacht soldiers in World War 2? Why or why not?
Won’t someone please think of the Nazi rapists 😔
Another case of “anyone slightly more left wing than me is a tankie, anyone slightly more right wing is a fascist” while we all boil in the same real-life-gray-area soup
I just wanna grill for god’s sake!
Shut up tankie /s
congrats to the new dbzero tankies btw
i thought they were anarchists
doesn’t matter, still tankies. libs declare anyone who is too left leaning as scary murderous tankies.
tankie is not about what they believe in but how can we destroy their reputation so nobody listens to their actually effective anti-estabilishment rhetoric.
basically a meaningless term used by right wingers for demonization, not a real descriptor of political leaning.
Not for long after the Troika liberates them
Been gone for a while, did my peoples go tankie?
always has been
It’s a shifting target. Tankie has always been a pejorative for those supportive of socialist states, now this has broadened from “support” to “doesn’t fully condemn.”
Not really but according to the nazi bars everyone left of Kissinger is one.
Literaly 19684
Tbh I might bring it over to hexbear now that this is my main acc :3
We have 196 on hexbear. Its called main. Its just kinda dead and I would love if more posting was done.
I can do that :3
i seriously dont understand this hardcore anti “tankie”-ism on some parts of lemmy
i understand banning fascists when theyre spreading hateful, discriminatory or/and genocidal rhetoric but what “tankies” believe in is just another political ideology
almost as if they’re right about something and liberal moderators are scared of people finding out about the truth 🤔
I think it has nothing to do with the reasons they give, they just want to push western narratives of “righteousness”
I’ve been to political rooms in blahaj before and the discussed politics always boil down to anti-conservatism and anti-russian/chinese imperialism,
US imperialism? You’ll be called a tankie and told to stop acting like one to fit in
Israel genocide? You’re regressing the progressiveness of empowering jews, stop being overly antisemitic and using tankie sources
Some political news africa? Turn it about weather or not they support LGBTQ rights yet
Riots in south america? Their governments are oppressing them, also stop using tankie sources
There’s no way they can be this biased by coincidence, i’m not a tankie and i didn’t believe it at first but it’s true, Tankie do carry the burden of always being right!
the people I talk to in blahaj, always call out USA’s and isreali imperalism
I mean they just ban everyone who can critically read the media and understand basic geopolitics. Of course the remainder will be imperial core national chauvinists, that’s the default in their countries.
This is just standard liberalism. They literally think communists are the same as Nazis. They think Hitler and Stalin allied to conquer Poland. They think the Soviets did a genocide, and they think Mao was some kind of demon whose goal was omnicide.
"One may respect or hate Nazism, just as one may respect or hate any other system of political views. That is a matter of taste. But to start a war for the sake of the ‘destruction of Nazism’ is to commit in politics an act of criminal stupidity.”
J. Stalin, Pravda, Nov 30, 1939
Do you know what the context of this was, or are you quote-farming? The central point being made by Stalin was that fighting the Nazis prematurely, without solidifying western allies (who would have loved nothing more than the Nazis and Soviets killing each other off), the Soviets may end up catapulting straight into their own demise. It was the fact that Stalin had a cooler head and a better reading of the room that the Soviets managed to launch history’s greatest counteroffensive and wipe out the biggest fascist threat around the world.
I speak fluent Russian and read this and the rest in original. That’s absolutely not what is written.
And you can go and see Stalin’s edits on the article draft in Russian presidential archive.
“Nuh uh”
How compelling
Elaborate, then, what was Stalin trying to do? I specified context because that’s specifically what Stalin was trying to do.
Irrelevant question, and burden of proof lies on you as you are challenging a factual event that happened.
No, lol, I was describing Stalin’s well-documented strategy regarding the Nazi threat. It’s summarized quite well in How to Cast a God into Hell: The Khrushchev Report. The Soviets expected the Nazis to invade, but were worried about the west, which was reluctant to take either side. Stalin was no friend of the Nazis, and wanted more time to prepare, and to prevent Britain from siding with the Nazis, which was a sizable risk.
feds 🌈
It’s spurned by liberal admins and mods usually. They can’t actually argue against us so they put their cognitive dissonance into an unhealthy place of self-soothing.
This actually isn’t unique to Lemmy at all it is the default reaction of committed liberals and liberals with thin skin. But when someone feels ownership of a place and like they’re losing legitimacy and control they can lash out.
It’s also important to understand that most people online discussing politics in these forums know basically nothing. They don’t read. They can’t critically engage with media. They don’t question their own biases when presented with people from other cultures. They certainly don’t actually do anything irl that would teach them visceral lessons. Trying to build an organization (not a career in a non-profit), a party, or even just feeding people. They might as well be 10 year olds for all the information contained in their political opinions. But they feel extremely entitled to their positions and wrap it up in their identities. If they are contradicted they feel personally attacked. If they think something despite having never investigated it, they announce it proudly with confidence and bully those who disagree. In short, humility runs counter to their socialization.
Finally, they’re used to punching right, or at least most of them are, and their rhetoric breaks down when they are instead forced to punch left. So they just start namecalling instead, banning, or just trolling, as it allows their egos to escape without much damage.
Luckily, we are looking at an echo chamber of people who automatically self-isolate and can’t organize anything. In the real world conversations are faster and more productive and building things and teaching is much easier, even with an audience that isn’t entirely friendly. Irl people usually can’t get away with acting like such babies.
If you want a point of view that isn’t in your bubble, what many people call “tankies” are in fact campists. By that I mean they commonly engage in authoritarian apologia for anyone purportedly “against the west”.
Iranian government brutalizing its own people? Butwutaboutdawest. Russia waging an imperialist war to absorb a neighbour? Butwutaboutnato. China threatening it’s neighbours? Butwutaboutdawest.
Nothing is ever their fault, any atrocity committed is either a false flag or misinformation because the only thing that matters is the team on the shirt, not any actual actions.
God forbid somebody can be against US imperialism and against Russian imperialism simultaneously, that’s much too nuanced.
God forbid somebody can be against US imperialism and against Russian imperialism simultaneously, that’s much too nuanced.
I think the most common position I’ve seen on these “tankie” spaces is:
I mean the current state of Russia is the consequence of the illegal dissolution of the Soviet Union against the will of the people after all.
I mean the current state of Russia is the consequence of the illegal dissolution of the Soviet Union against the will of the people after all.
I think that liberals see this as the term that the other guy used: “Butwutaboutdawest”
God forbid somebody can be against US imperialism and against Russian imperialism simultaneously, that’s much too nuanced.
Mmm yes, very nice. Now let’s see your opinions on NATO, the EU and the Iranian government.
NATO: only time it’s ever been triggered was for the US “war on terror”. A smaller more local NATO that ACTUALLY focuses purely on regional defence rather than some regional defence, some helping US imperialism in the middle east would be much better.
EU: Very imperfect, but the best chance we’ve got to stand up and support ourselves without being beholden to either Russia or the US. If we want real autonomy, we’ve got to work together regionally. Individual European countries stand no chance solo on the world stage.
Iranian government: Rightfully paranoid, but that paranoia seeps into every aspect of it’s interaction with it’s population. I do wish they could somehow modify their government to allow more individual liberties, clamp down on human rights abuses while keeping the aspects of it that have allowed it to resist the US. I don’t know how that might look, but it’s definitely not happening now that the US have gone “hold my beer” and committed war crimes that make what Iran did look trivial by comparison. The population definitely can’t push for reforms when in an active shooting war where infrastructure that civilians rely on is being deleted.
Ok so
eu: -Perfect but just short of it -The imperfections overshadowed by importance -Importance comes from value of european lives -Threatened by Russia and the US -Once again important due to needed unity
Iran: -Scared and worried -Untrust worthy of governing it’s people -I care about iranians rights a lot -They deserve to have their government modified -Modifications should not harm resistance to US -We need to plan for that change in government -The US warcrimes against iran are bad but we should focus on how much worst than Iranian government’s they are -The issue with the warcrimes is that they are getting in the way of resisting their government
Are you racist? I feel like you’re not judging these two groups of people equally
Can you also do this for US and Israel as well, i think comparing how lenient you’ll be with them when they’re not being massacred like cattle vs how rigid and cold you are with Iranians while they are is going to say so much
Can you please point to where I said I was the arbiter of what that change would look like or what the yardistick should be?
The equivalence here which is not broken imho, and if broken I need to change my POV, is local autonomy for both EU citizens and Iranians are of prime importance. Both EU citizens and Iranians deserve to control their own respective governments, free of outside influence. Both EU & Iranian people deserve to be in charge of their own day to day lives, without an imposition of any particular religious behavior or set of norms.
The issue that you wouldn’t worry about regime change in any country in the EU if that country was being bombed by two aggressors
The fact you care so little about the aggression to the point you’d rather focus or keep bringing up issues that no Iranian in their right mind would prioritize right now because death, killing, missiles, no water or electricity, currency devalued, shows how little you care about that suffering
You’d never bring up regime change or emissions or drug trafficking for any EU country if they were being hit by more than 2000 missiles
you are insane at best and racist at worst, i’m sorry but you have to reflect here or just actually watch how united everyone in Iran is for their government right now
Sometimes it can devolve into campism, but no, mostly it is not being pro-west through double standards and false dichotomies. Combining your fist point and last point, the disagreement is the falseness of your last statement. “US and Russia can be bad at once” but Russia is inherently evil that can not not be considered an extreme, existential evil until a total collapse and replacement of its government and any Russian that isn’t actively rebelling against their government is an evil orc. But the US is bad because Trump is crass and rude and I would like more polite politicians leading wars of aggression against other nations, and if a Democrat were in power, they would do 4% less imperialism which would make it an acceptable amount. Radical politics in the US is obviously too far and “tankie”, the furthest left without being “tankie” that could be allowed is Mamdami increasing local taxes by 3%.
Iranian government brutalizing its own people? … China threatening it’s neighbours?
again, extreme double standards. People are protesting their government, that justifies foreign intervention and invasion? Should the Russian and Chinese governments have invaded and aiding armed agitators in the US in 2020 because the BLM protests were larger scale protests against the government? The most credible accusation of “genocide” in China against the Uighurs was a cultural genocide from making them learn Mandarin and basic Han Chinese etiquette, not any form of mass scale violence (again, even though all the anti-tankie positions are based on ignoring reality, but it is the opposite of Gaza where nearly all human rights organizations say that there is a genocide in Gaza but not in China). But cultural genocide is defined so that forcing people to learn and use another language counts. The problem for “non-tankies” is that that means that Ukraine has engaged in an equivalent cultural genocide since 2014 when notably only Ukrainian language would be officially used in schools, government bureaucracy, signs, etc. because of the fascist far-right’s power after Euromaidan which caused the Russian separatist movement. Though Russia was definitely more interested in realpolitik considerations, other than true concerns of ethnic Russians in the Donbass. But you are a tankie if you don’t think Putin spontaneously decided to invade in February 2022 for no reason except being evil.
For China threatening their neighbors, that is hard to parse, since it is hard to find anything that that might be real. They are famously willing to work and trade with anyone, even including Israel, and attempt to de-escalate and isolate from geopolitics. I am guessing you mean Taiwan, which mostly isn’t them actively threatening them with military force, but the US politicians using that potential to legitimate military presence in SE Asia. And again, invasion of Taiwan wouldn’t be justified, but there is mostly nothing other than Taiwan being close to China means having any planes and ships near the Chinese coast is a “threatening position”. And, because it is a frozen civil war, both sides agree that both territories are Chinese territory. Again, to explain to the USian, imagine if the UK intervened to protect part of the Confederacy to continue surviving in Florida, and both USians and Floridians agreed that Florida was part of the USA.
Again, if you are justifying a “both-sidesism” by foreign intervention and invasions/wars of aggression, then there is a quantitative argument to be made. You are a tankie if you don’t think China and Russia are objectively and extremely more evil than the US and West, even if the US “can be bad” too. But just in the 21st century the US has invaded/attacked Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, Venezuela, and Somalia (non-exhaustive) and backed genocides in Israel and Yemen. Russia has invaded Ukraine, and a separatist part of Georgia, and not as actively armed, but tolerated Israels genocide. And China tolerates Israel, and supposedly might think of some time possibly invading Taiwan. The “anti-tankie” sees this and says that Russia and China are irredeemably evil and must be opposed and their citizens hated at all costs, but I also dislike some things Trump said or vaguely denounced the invasion of Iraq so “both sides bad” and “I am the real nuance understander”.
Sorry, I’m confused. Were you responding to me? When did I bring up Uyghurs or claim that Iranian people protesting justifies an invasion? When did I claim every Russian is responsible for the decisions of the Russian government? I feel like you’re shadowboxing an imagined version of my position.
Also, I went into in great length in the other thread, I think you’re very very wrong about Russia & Ukraine. What you wrote of my supposed position is yet again a parody strawman.
EDIT: Also, I’m not making a quantitative argument except in the context that the amount campists trust these governments to always be honest and truthful is absolute, while anything the US government says is always evil lying propaganda. Quantitatively, the US produces and disseminates far more propaganda. That doesn’t give people the excuse to blindly believe everything everyone else says though.
I am pointing out in the original context of Kittenrulz and your denunciation of how tankies can’t accept that someone can be “against Russian Imperialism and US imperialsim” is actually the straw man. Again, I am sure you can find one loser somewhere to cherry pick that actually thinks that Russia and China are perfect and US is only evil. But your portrait of both Lemmy “tankies” and the “tankies” referenced by OP’s meme is just that they would not maintain a double standard for the US and its adversaries and that you are “nuanced” for not agreeing with 100% of what the US does while accepting the worst propaganda about its adversaries.
I pointed out your inclusion of Iran and Russia because again, opposing Lemmy “tankies” on Iran is them calling out support of the CIA and Mossad to expand the anti-government protests and providing material support like arms and Starlink terminals to aid the protests. It forces the unfortunate position of having to be wary due to consequences and not principle. I think the original Kittenrulz post brought this up but as terrible and flawed as Ghaddafi, Saddam Hussein, and Assad were, letting the US and their proxies overthrow and destroy their governments still made the lives of people in those countries much worse. For Russia, that was pointing out that there is much more vilification of Russians and willingness to sanction and undermine their economy and citizens than Americans even though just the Iraq war alone was an even worse and less justified war of aggression. Again, I am pointing out that all accusations of “tankie” boil down to just not maintaining this double standard. And I was working off of the original banning of Kittenrulz and you invoking the Russian Invasion. The accusations of “tankie” around the Russian-Ukraine war do boil down to having any explanations or understanding of the causes of the war beyond “Putin is evil, so he does evil things like invading countries”. Kittenrulz and most “tankies” do not say that it is good and just, though I will admit there are a minority that take Russia’s side due to the full embrace of overt Nazism within sectors of the Ukraine government and armed forces since 2014 and exacerbated by 2022. Though that was a convenient talking point for Russian officials rather than a real motivation, and the war empowering and legitimizing these Neo-nazi formations.
Thank you for not strawmanning me and actually walking through your experiences with others who are “anti-tankie” rather than assuming the worst of me.
I legitimately don’t have time to respond to absolutely all of this in huge detail, so assume that if I didn’t respond to a specific point I just didn’t have much to say about it.
It forces the unfortunate position of having to be wary due to consequences and not principle.
I do generally agree with this in principle. The governmental structure of Iran, for example, makes a lot of sense if your explicit goal is to be as coup-proof as possible. This is very much a double-edged sword: a country built on legitimate paranoia often sees any protest as foreign interference, regardless of the reality.
Kittenrulz and most “tankies” do not say that it is good and just, though I will admit there are a minority that take Russia’s side
Maybe I’m just taking crazy pills here, but most of the opinions on the war over seen here can be boiled down to “Evil Ukrainian Nazis bad, Russia good”. That is legitimately what I see during the rare moments I look over here.
full embrace of overt Nazism within sectors of the Ukraine government and armed forces
It can’t be “some sectors” and a “full embrace” at the same time, can it? There were some well known units that were very explicitly neonazi, but at no point did they have any control over the civilian government or military high command.
Though that was a convenient talking point for Russian officials rather than a real motivation
Thank you for acknowledging that.
I do generally agree with this in principle. The governmental structure of Iran, for example, makes a lot of sense if your explicit goal is to be as coup-proof as possible. This is very much a double-edged sword: a country built on legitimate paranoia often sees any protest as foreign interference, regardless of the reality.
Again, at the expense of being strawmanned, this is enough to invoke “anti-tankie” rules. Most of the anti-tankie action in blahaj.zone, .world, and all the other liberals is acknowledging this. And taking into context that articles and opinions of “look at how evil and bad and irredeemable country and its people is” is apologizing for authoritarianism. If you are not cheering for the overthrow of the Iranian government simply because the US would do everything to make something worse result from it, you are a “tankie” and what blahaj and .world mean by the word.
Maybe I’m just taking crazy pills here, but most of the opinions on the war over seen here can be boiled down to “Evil Ukrainian Nazis bad, Russia good”.
I may be a little optimistic in how few people took seriously the Russian government’s official story of the invasion being entirely because of the overt Nazism of the Ukrainian armed forces and the explicit anti-Russian ethnosupremacy of the Ukranian government in their civil war that started in 2014, but it is still a minority. But I will say that I am worried that I am taking crazy pills. A large part of the accusations of “tankie” is not agreeing with “Russia evil orcs, Ukrainians are perfect elven defenders of Western Civilization”. I still stand by my previous statements of any attempt of explaining the Russian paranoia of a hostile military alliance moving closer to its borders (NATO was supposedly only supposed to defend against the Warsaw Pact, though NATO pre-dated it) and the fact that the US was attempting Color Revolutions on its border (I know that for invoking color revolutions I need to justify against anti-CIA bias. But color revolutions do take advantage and empower actual discontent of the local population, the CIA can’t summon governmental changes with a wave of a wand. It is just what the US government and media supports and legitimizes.) But ever acknowledging that Russia would be upset by the CIA helping to install a hostile government on its border, with plans to join a hostile military alliance, is tankieism.
It can’t be “some sectors” and a “full embrace”
Just like the Republican party can fully embrace MAGA but only some sectors of the US are Trump acolytes. Euromaidan produced very organized and energized neo-nazi groups like Azov Battalion, C-14, Aidar, etc. And even though they didn’t have a majority in the elected government, the fact that they had a very large amount of angry, motivated, and armed men with military supplies mean that the government knew they could not cross or displease them. They have taken priority and given special consideration due to the war of the last 12 years. An ethno-nationalist military formation will be more motivated and more willing to fight hard than a random conscript. This has become significantly more apparent since 2022 where the actual conscripts that are grabbed off the streets are sent to their death as cannon fodder, so that Azov or Aidar can take advantage of the softened line and expended munitions to try to attack a possible weak point. The war has legitimized these neo-nazi groups and empowered them as they have greater recruitment since you are less likely to have your life thrown away as cannon fodder if you enlist with them rather than wait to be conscripted and thrown against Russian drones. And they are legitimized by being the forces capturing territory and fighting off Russian advances as the normal rank and file are sacrificed for it.
And taking into context that articles and opinions of “look at how evil and bad and irredeemable country and its people is” is apologizing for authoritarianism. If you are not cheering for the overthrow of the Iranian government simply because the US would do everything to make something worse result from it, you are a “tankie” and what blahaj and .world mean by the word.
After talking with you and seeing your opinions, I don’t think you’re a campist (or ‘tankie’). There’s way too much nuance for that. I may disagree with some of your points, but I follow your logic and you don’t seem to be just repeating propaganda. I obviously can’t speak for any instance admins or other users anywhere on the fediverse, I’m just talking for myself and my opinions.
Russian paranoia of a hostile military alliance moving closer to its borders (NATO was supposedly only supposed to defend against the Warsaw Pact, though NATO pre-dated it)
The issue with that line of thinking is that NATO is a voluntary alliance. Generally speaking, here in eastern Europe, countries join NATO when they feel threatened by Russia. We’ve seen that pattern play out over and over: Russia plays brinksmanship over their border, violating airspace, testing limits, etc, and countries join. Finland and Sweden specifically joined in direct response to the Russo-Ukraine war.
A large part of the accusations of “tankie” is not agreeing with “Russia evil orcs, Ukrainians are perfect elven defenders of Western Civilization”.
I hope I’ve made it clear that that is not at all my point of view on the topic. Again, can’t talk for anyone else.
But ever acknowledging that Russia would be upset by the CIA helping to install a hostile government on its border, with plans to join a hostile military alliance, is tankieism.
The issue with this is that most of the countries involved have relatively recent memories of Russification, forced compliance with first the Russian Empire, then the USSR. I absolutely agree that the CIA would and has helped these movements, but as you say, the CIA can’t wave a magic wand and summon these movements. They have to exist, and they have to be large.
This has become significantly more apparent since 2022 where the actual conscripts that are grabbed off the streets are sent to their death as cannon fodder, so that Azov or Aidar can take advantage of the softened line and expended munitions to try to attack a possible weak point.
This sounds like an inversion of the classic “USSR/Russian meatwave” meme. It’s ridiculous when people talk about it when it comes to Russians, as if they have some mythical predisposition to throwing their soldiers lives away for no gain, and it’s equally ridiculous when people attribute that to the Ukrainian military. Both sides have suffered grueling losses due to the nature of the combat, and the learning curve with modern drone combat.
I hope though, while you’re almost definitely aware of the war crimes of the Azov and Aidar battalions, you’re also aware of the long list of war crimes of various Russian units. From the intentional striking of civilian targets (including hospitals), torture of civilians, abduction of children, gang rapes, and more. I 100% agree that Ukrainians aren’t ‘perfect elven defenders of the west’, but let’s be very very clear about what the Russian military is doing.
Iranian government brutalizing its own people? Butwutaboutdawest.
That seems like a reasonable question to ask in order to not blindly adopt national chauvinists views. Shouldn’t you put developments in context to avoid getting swept up in a propaganda push?
Is this the “authoritarian apologia” you mentioned? Maybe you could give a citation of someone doing it so we can judge if they are being unreasonable.
Russia waging an imperialist war to absorb a neighbour? Butwutaboutnato.
Is it imperialist? Russia is doing this to expand profit seeking for its national-level monopolies or otherwise export capital? If so they are doing a bad job. Or maybe you don’t know what imperialism is in this context.
Regarding NATO, yes understanding its purpose and it’s member activities in the lead up to Russia invading Ukraine is actually a basic necessity for grasping why it happened at all and why it isn’t just revanchism or “imperialism”. Can you tell me what happened re: the Minsk agreements and why that is relevant? What were their contents?
China threatening it’s neighbours? Butwutaboutdawest.
I honestly don’t know what this is even about. Maybe Japan remilitarizing? It’s not hard to see why that would be concerning.
Nothing is ever their fault, any atrocity committed is either a false flag or misinformation because the only thing that matters is the team on the shirt, not any actual actions.
I have never seen someone saying anything remotely in the vein you are referencing that doesn’t also have criticism for those nations.
Perhaps you could give an example.
God forbid somebody can be against US imperialism and against Russian imperialism simultaneously, that’s much too nuanced.
One would have to start with an understanding of imperialism.
Shouldn’t you put developments in context to avoid getting swept up in a propaganda push?
That’s reasonable. I personally knew a lady who was beaten, imprisoned and starved for a week by the morality police for forgetting her hijab at home though. I struggle to think of a context that would justify that. This was many years ago though, as I understand it the morality police and their systematic human rights abuses were largely unofficially abolished in 2023 after mass protests.
The new wave of protests from this year were largely about inflation and cost of living, as far as I understand. You don’t get to thousands of deaths and hundreds of thousands of injuries via effective crowd management.
Is it imperialist? Russia is doing this to expand profit seeking for its national-level monopolies or otherwise export capital? If so they are doing a bad job.
In order: yes, yes, yes, and also yes.
My opinion is that the primary motive of the original full-scale war, which they honestly thought they could get done in 3 days, was primarily to expand the workforce due to their crippled demographics, while simultaneously scoring an easy propaganda win domestically, giving a black eye to the US and EU, and get a hold of the rare earth minerals which were being prospected in eastern Ukraine at the time. It also didn’t hurt that before they bombed it, the area was relatively industrialized. Due to the incompetence of authoritarians in general and their inability to admit defeat (just look at the US in Iran today if you want a 2nd example), they are forced to keep going to save face no matter how pointless it is and how many people die.
In terms of motivation for Russia to continue their war long past the point of sunk costs, it probably also doesn’t help that because they’re fully in a war economy now, the end of the war will cause their economy to crash.
As a capstone to this: you don’t get a pass on imperialism just because you’re bad at it. If that was the case, Mussolini did nothing wrong.
I honestly don’t know what this is even about. Maybe Japan remilitarizing?
Take your pick. Saber rattling with Taiwan, encroaching on the Phillipine’s maritime waters, skirmishing with India and Pakistan on their border, and more.
I have never seen someone saying anything remotely in the vein you are referencing
I see every other day here references here to Ukrainian Nazis, Russian self-defense, etc. As an Eastern European who’s heard second-hand from refugees what’s going on in detail, I hope you can understand why that’d piss me off a little. So afraid of falling for US propaganda so they’re gobbling up Russian propaganda instead.
That’s reasonable. I personally knew a lady who was beaten, imprisoned and starved for a week by the morality police for forgetting her hijab at home though. I struggle to think of a context that would justify that.
Who said you have to justify it? Can you give a link and quote of the person who tried to make you?
This was many years ago though, as I understand it the morality police and their systematic human rights abuses were largely unofficially abolished in 2023 after mass protests.
Human rights discourse is fraught and almost always extremely national chauvinist, racist. But yes there has been a moderation.
The new wave of protests from this year were largely about inflation and cost of living, as far as I understand. You don’t get to thousands of deaths and hundreds of thousands of injuries via effective crowd management.
I’m not sure what this means.
In order: yes, yes, yes, and also yes.
Then you are wrong.
My opinion is that the primary motive of the original war, which they honestly thought they could get done in 3 days, was primarily to expand the workforce due to their crippled demographics
Well yes not ending the war after that 3 days, which was an option for Ukraine but rejected by their masters, would have been the way for Ukraine to not be destroyed as a country.
Unfortunately for Ukrainians, they have been sacrificed and their country ostensibly sold on loan. Russia did indeed hope they would choose to not do that.
But who knows what you mean by “crippled demographics”, the demos were not particularly different in Donbas. Also why ignore the history leading up to it.
while simultaneously scoring an easy propaganda win domestically, giving a black eye to the US and EU, and get a hold of the rare earth minerals which were being prospected in eastern Ukraine at the time.
Actually none if that is imperialism except maybe the rare earths but that’s really not an inherently compelling argument on its own because all land has value, but not all invasions or annexations are imperialist. Russia was not exactly hurting due to lack of rare earths. They were hurting from being slowly isolated from European markets and from a war zone on their border. 8 years of neo-Nazis shelling ethnic Russians in Donbas after Euromaiden and you’re speculating it was rare earths?
It also didn’t hurt that before they bombed it, the area was relatively industrialized. Due to the incompetence of authoritarians in general and their inability to admit defeat (just look at the US in Iran today if you want a 2nd example), they are forced to keep going to save face no matter how pointless it is and how many people die.
Material forces constrain what “authoritarians” can do in this way, this is naive fantasy speak about how nation states operate. In reality, the refusal to do Minsk III is what set the stage, it is a recognition that a hard break was sought by Ukraine’s masters and no negotiation would be forthcoming that even had the pretense of another agreement to fail to meet the conditions of. The destruction of the Nord Stream pipeline is a good example of the break being sought. With Ukraine off the table for a political negotiation, that left only the establishment of an ongoing material dynamic: demilitarization by force, annexation of Donbas, surviving a new economic status quo.
Speaking of the new economic status quo, Russia fared well despite the various financial nuclear options leveraged against them. This was probably a surprise to their neoliberal bankers, but the base reality of the situation made sustaining it appealing.
Take your pick. Saber rattling with Taiwan,
That is stoked by the West and there are no new developments on that front that aren’t the US trying to escalate via moving yet more military assets there. Or China moving ships across waters right in between the mainland and the island slightly more often or with a slightly different exercise.
You call this making threats?
encroaching on the Phillipine’s maritime waters
I guess if we are being vague about what encroaching is okay. Building up and claiming various contiguous waters in the south china sea that would have otherwise been international waters and continuing to dispute long-disputed claims to some islands.
You call this making threats?
skirmishing with India and Pakistan on their border
Name them and let’s see what the big deal is. PS, is it threatening.
I see every other day here references here to Ukrainian Nazis, Russian self-defense, etc.
So what? This doesn’t respond to what I said at all.
As an Eastern European who’s heard second-hand from refugees what’s going on in detail, I hope you can understand why that’d piss me off a little.
I don’t care what pisses you off.
PS you skipped over 75% of what I said.
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Ah, I thought so. Honestly don’t really have the time and energy to go back and forth with these massive walls of text, so I’ll just say that you’ve fallen hook line and sinker for Russian propaganda.
Go back to Reddit
Ah, I thought so. Honestly don’t really have the time and energy to go back and forth with these massive walls of text, so I’ll just say that you’ve fallen hook line and sinker for Russian propaganda.
Ah yes it’s my fault that you have no response. Just throw in a thought-terminating cliché.
Ukrainian Nazis exist, just like there are Nazis in literally every country on the planet. They weren’t in control of anything, nor were they in any way in control of the government.
See how you are just going on and on about things I didn’t say rather than responding to what I did say?
Though Ukrainian neo-Nazis absolutely were in control of exactly what I referenced: running front-line militias that shelled Donbas. This was widely reported until 2022 when Western media needed to push that to the side.
The “ethnic Russians” were primarily Russian army troops out of uniform.
No the ethnic Russians I am referring to are about half of the people who lived and live in Donbas. Civilian population centers were shelled.
There’s piles and piles of evidence about this.
No there aren’t.
The low intensity war between Russia and Ukraine was to destabilize Ukraine to attempt to force it back into Russia’s sphere of influence against the will of the populace.
Historical revisionism that ignores Euromaidan and the grassroots response in Eastern Ukraine to the coups and anti-ethnic Russian, anti-left campaigns that followed. Do you think it was the Russians that locked union organizers in a building and set it on fire?
If that isn’t imperialist, I don’t know what is.
Yes, exactly, you don’t know what imperialism is.
I don’t know why I’m writing all this out, tbh. You’ve drunk the Kool aid.
Self-soothing to help rationalize why you have no actual response to what I’ve said.
Anything “an enemy of the west” says is believed uncritically, no actual thinking, just regurgitation.
Oh? What specific claims by “an enemy of the west” have I believed uncritically?
Have a wonderful day regardless, and I honestly hope you’re doing well.
Uh-huh
God forbid somebody can be against US imperialism and against Russian imperialism simultaneously, that’s much too nuanced.
How many days are they into the 3 day operation?
Just an FYI but Ukraine wants to be the Greater Israel of Europe. Struck an Iranian ship, is great friends with Netanyahu, has vans that kidnap Ukranian citizens to be sent to the meat grinder. ( https://busification.org/ )
You’re pro-Palestine but also pro-Ukraine? So anti war-ism but supports western’s interests that also support genocide.
Cringe memes aside, anyone who can say with a straight face that poor little Putin was forced into this war against his will has obviously not been listening to the words coming out of his mouth.
Don’t worry, right wing meme formats are all these fucks can debate with. They know they have no arguments beyond “nuh huh, my country good” and “you deserve to be removed for questioning things”
These people don’t think. They just repeat propaganda from China and Russia and think it’s the truth. They’re no different than people who believe Trump’s ramblings.
They think they are, but they aren’t. If Trump was in charge of China they’d be head over heels.
This reads extremely like a story someone tells themselves in order to avoid having to engage with what other people actually think. Very “of course these natives aren’t trying to tell me anything important, they’re just mindless Bad Guy savages and i can probably just guess whatever primitive bullshit they’re thinking” vibes.
Also, lol, dude, you are mindlessly repeating liberal cope about communists who oppose western warmongering while wearing the name and image of a guy who was famously slandered as a communist and imprisoned by liberals for opposing western warmongering. Very free thinking and anti-authoritarian of you to spontaneously recreate the social attitude of 1917.
“The evil tankies have taken over Lemmy and our instances are next”
The evil tankies: “Who even are you”
Got blocked from 196 for having an opinion that, although popular, did not align with the mods there so you know what? Fuck 196 and their baby mods. They’ve shown themselves to be little bitch snowflakes so let them be?
Your ban reason is listed as transphobia, I trust blahaj more with that than I trust blahaj when it comes to leftism.
Which is hilarious because I have a trans son whom I love to the ends of the earth. Almost like you can’t judge people from comments online. So yeah, fuck them.
“I can’t be racist I have a black friend!” Like cmon
A few things.
- The parallel is stupid.
- If you legit have a black friend you probably have more than one.
- I also have LGBT friends, have walked the pride parade, fought for them, etc.
- Opinions are like aasholes
- Arguing on The Internet proves both parties are removed
I stand by what I say. The mods on 196/balajahaja or whatever the fuck it is are snowflake babies and nothing of value for me was lost but I’m more that happy to express they are snowflake babies whenever given the opportunity.
The mods on 196/balajahaja or whatever the fuck it is are snowflake babies
I agree with this 100%. i have not dug into whatever comment got you in hot water
Im just stating that being around LGBTQIA people, or any minority, or even being one of these groups, doesn’t preclude you, or anyone, from homophobia/transphobia/racism. We live in a racist ass society. we are all racist. we live in a transphobic society. we are all transphobic. instead of trying to argue why you arent these things you should instead examine why someone might say what you had done or said was transphobic.
Fundamentally I disagree with blocking outside of things like threatening life, CSAM or other extreme things. Doing it for different opinions? That’s a bitch move and sign of a weak person or persons.
You or anyone else can go through my comment history at no point have I said anything destructive to anyone. Regardless it’s neither here nor there. The mods/admins of that instance have shown they are not interested in divergent or challenging opinions. Let them live in their walled garden. For anyone on their instance I would seriously take a second look at their bullshit policies and/or questionable moderation.
My 2 cents.
Edit and on your point of we live in a racist/transfobic society I agree 100%. Maybe it’s an opportunity for the people doing the banning to reflect maybe they need to pull their heads out their asses and realize intentionally removing voices from a room does not make the voices go away. And adult would have asked/talked it out. Dialogue. Nope. Bitch behaviour and block lol
196 has a very clear stance on tankies and other authoritarians.
but we’re not willing to allow somebody we so fundamentally disagree with to moderate our community.
I don’t know about you, but /c/196@lemmy.blahaj.zone might have an authoritarian problem.
I’m actually hearing there are widespread humanitarian concerns about reports of ideological purges in the blahaj regime.
Been on Lemmy for almost 2 years, that instance and the people who joined it always felt “off” to me, I’m glad I recently set up a Lemmy instance of my own because that de-federate button will likely come in handy shortly.
The moment they openly defended keeping chasers around and sexually tokenizing trans women, I was out. Those lead to a compatibilist approach to integration via internalizing self-deprecation and worse.
The moment they openly defended keeping chasers around and sexually tokenizing trans women
barely related tangent warning:
chasers are thing in most lgbtqia communities and it’s fascinating to me how they’re embraced in the ones i’m a member of (bears, chubs, daddies, mature) and how they’re reviled in most of the trans communities and for the same exact reasons in all circumstances.
it makes me wonder if the way that men and women are conditioned to regard to their own sexuality has anything to do with it.
One thing to consider is that the people you’re describing as accepted are fundamentally already in the in group that is oppressed - gay or bi. Chasers are basically universally cis men treating trans women as a fetish object. The dehumanizing aspect is different when it is in no way self-referential and when the basic identity is what is fetishized.
Another way to think of it is that for a group of people oppressed in their societies, one of the few ways those (cis) societies “value” trans women is as a taboo sexual fetish, often an exploitable one.
This does relate to gender in that these societies are misogynist and treat women’s bodies as available for purchase in one way or another, plus a long ladder up to that actual act - simulation, imagery, drama, etc. The act of “acquisition” is gender biased in the extreme and coincides with the impoverished of women, and not coincidentally trans women. What is the value of a woman?
We know that some people eventually work past their “fuck tankies” stage because we did. Most of us used to believe the same things and for the same reasons, because we grew up under largely the same conditions.
Literally me fr, hell I used to be a lib if you could believe that :3
Actually I was never this insufferable.
Tankie is a disgruntled state of mind/interaction. A basic incompatibility.
Tankie is just a pejorative for those who support existing socialist states.
I have supported socialist states, said positive things about Vietnam and China on countless occasions and never been called a Tankie.
So I think there is a discussion and attitude element to it.
Depends on the audience, more than anything. Most socialists aren’t going to waste time calling each other a tankie.
So I think there is a discussion and attitude element to it.
The same comment can be interpreted differently based on the author instance by liberals.
Do the same type of comment with an account on .ml and see if people will call you tankie or not.
Hermeneutics in action. Thanks, Losurdo!
What Losurdo wrote related to that? I never read anything from him(I suck at reading important shit).
It’s a common throughline in his writing, usually related to how we pervieve information based on our perception of the source. If the US says a country is evil, leftists might be suspicious of this claim and sometimes assume the opposite (to an extent), while conservatives would happily go along with it.
Tankie is a thought-terminating cliché by liberals that can’t handle losing an argument and don’t know how else to punch left.
Funny how they all talk like 4chan chuds
Context: https://lem.lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/45960248
Image created by @edie@lemmy.encryptionin.space
they gotta do SOMETHING now that their asset – tesseract – has been exposed. lol
blahaj was on the tesseract blocklist as well though. We even get mentioned alongside dbzer0 and quokk.au in the “bad instances that advocate/condone violence” list in patrick’s rant.
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some turbolib made a Lemmy client that had a hardcoded blacklist of users and instances they considered to be communists
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ah gotcha, and I’ve made the list myself apparently
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