I am pointing out in the original context of Kittenrulz and your denunciation of how tankies can’t accept that someone can be “against Russian Imperialism and US imperialsim” is actually the straw man. Again, I am sure you can find one loser somewhere to cherry pick that actually thinks that Russia and China are perfect and US is only evil. But your portrait of both Lemmy “tankies” and the “tankies” referenced by OP’s meme is just that they would not maintain a double standard for the US and its adversaries and that you are “nuanced” for not agreeing with 100% of what the US does while accepting the worst propaganda about its adversaries.
I pointed out your inclusion of Iran and Russia because again, opposing Lemmy “tankies” on Iran is them calling out support of the CIA and Mossad to expand the anti-government protests and providing material support like arms and Starlink terminals to aid the protests. It forces the unfortunate position of having to be wary due to consequences and not principle. I think the original Kittenrulz post brought this up but as terrible and flawed as Ghaddafi, Saddam Hussein, and Assad were, letting the US and their proxies overthrow and destroy their governments still made the lives of people in those countries much worse. For Russia, that was pointing out that there is much more vilification of Russians and willingness to sanction and undermine their economy and citizens than Americans even though just the Iraq war alone was an even worse and less justified war of aggression. Again, I am pointing out that all accusations of “tankie” boil down to just not maintaining this double standard. And I was working off of the original banning of Kittenrulz and you invoking the Russian Invasion. The accusations of “tankie” around the Russian-Ukraine war do boil down to having any explanations or understanding of the causes of the war beyond “Putin is evil, so he does evil things like invading countries”. Kittenrulz and most “tankies” do not say that it is good and just, though I will admit there are a minority that take Russia’s side due to the full embrace of overt Nazism within sectors of the Ukraine government and armed forces since 2014 and exacerbated by 2022. Though that was a convenient talking point for Russian officials rather than a real motivation, and the war empowering and legitimizing these Neo-nazi formations.
Thank you for not strawmanning me and actually walking through your experiences with others who are “anti-tankie” rather than assuming the worst of me.
I legitimately don’t have time to respond to absolutely all of this in huge detail, so assume that if I didn’t respond to a specific point I just didn’t have much to say about it.
It forces the unfortunate position of having to be wary due to consequences and not principle.
I do generally agree with this in principle. The governmental structure of Iran, for example, makes a lot of sense if your explicit goal is to be as coup-proof as possible. This is very much a double-edged sword: a country built on legitimate paranoia often sees any protest as foreign interference, regardless of the reality.
Kittenrulz and most “tankies” do not say that it is good and just, though I will admit there are a minority that take Russia’s side
Maybe I’m just taking crazy pills here, but most of the opinions on the war over seen here can be boiled down to “Evil Ukrainian Nazis bad, Russia good”. That is legitimately what I see during the rare moments I look over here.
full embrace of overt Nazism within sectors of the Ukraine government and armed forces
It can’t be “some sectors” and a “full embrace” at the same time, can it? There were some well known units that were very explicitly neonazi, but at no point did they have any control over the civilian government or military high command.
Though that was a convenient talking point for Russian officials rather than a real motivation
I do generally agree with this in principle. The governmental structure of Iran, for example, makes a lot of sense if your explicit goal is to be as coup-proof as possible. This is very much a double-edged sword: a country built on legitimate paranoia often sees any protest as foreign interference, regardless of the reality.
Again, at the expense of being strawmanned, this is enough to invoke “anti-tankie” rules. Most of the anti-tankie action in blahaj.zone, .world, and all the other liberals is acknowledging this. And taking into context that articles and opinions of “look at how evil and bad and irredeemable country and its people is” is apologizing for authoritarianism. If you are not cheering for the overthrow of the Iranian government simply because the US would do everything to make something worse result from it, you are a “tankie” and what blahaj and .world mean by the word.
Maybe I’m just taking crazy pills here, but most of the opinions on the war over seen here can be boiled down to “Evil Ukrainian Nazis bad, Russia good”.
I may be a little optimistic in how few people took seriously the Russian government’s official story of the invasion being entirely because of the overt Nazism of the Ukrainian armed forces and the explicit anti-Russian ethnosupremacy of the Ukranian government in their civil war that started in 2014, but it is still a minority. But I will say that I am worried that I am taking crazy pills. A large part of the accusations of “tankie” is not agreeing with “Russia evil orcs, Ukrainians are perfect elven defenders of Western Civilization”. I still stand by my previous statements of any attempt of explaining the Russian paranoia of a hostile military alliance moving closer to its borders (NATO was supposedly only supposed to defend against the Warsaw Pact, though NATO pre-dated it) and the fact that the US was attempting Color Revolutions on its border (I know that for invoking color revolutions I need to justify against anti-CIA bias. But color revolutions do take advantage and empower actual discontent of the local population, the CIA can’t summon governmental changes with a wave of a wand. It is just what the US government and media supports and legitimizes.) But ever acknowledging that Russia would be upset by the CIA helping to install a hostile government on its border, with plans to join a hostile military alliance, is tankieism.
It can’t be “some sectors” and a “full embrace”
Just like the Republican party can fully embrace MAGA but only some sectors of the US are Trump acolytes. Euromaidan produced very organized and energized neo-nazi groups like Azov Battalion, C-14, Aidar, etc. And even though they didn’t have a majority in the elected government, the fact that they had a very large amount of angry, motivated, and armed men with military supplies mean that the government knew they could not cross or displease them. They have taken priority and given special consideration due to the war of the last 12 years. An ethno-nationalist military formation will be more motivated and more willing to fight hard than a random conscript. This has become significantly more apparent since 2022 where the actual conscripts that are grabbed off the streets are sent to their death as cannon fodder, so that Azov or Aidar can take advantage of the softened line and expended munitions to try to attack a possible weak point. The war has legitimized these neo-nazi groups and empowered them as they have greater recruitment since you are less likely to have your life thrown away as cannon fodder if you enlist with them rather than wait to be conscripted and thrown against Russian drones. And they are legitimized by being the forces capturing territory and fighting off Russian advances as the normal rank and file are sacrificed for it.
And taking into context that articles and opinions of “look at how evil and bad and irredeemable country and its people is” is apologizing for authoritarianism. If you are not cheering for the overthrow of the Iranian government simply because the US would do everything to make something worse result from it, you are a “tankie” and what blahaj and .world mean by the word.
After talking with you and seeing your opinions, I don’t think you’re a campist (or ‘tankie’). There’s way too much nuance for that. I may disagree with some of your points, but I follow your logic and you don’t seem to be just repeating propaganda. I obviously can’t speak for any instance admins or other users anywhere on the fediverse, I’m just talking for myself and my opinions.
Russian paranoia of a hostile military alliance moving closer to its borders (NATO was supposedly only supposed to defend against the Warsaw Pact, though NATO pre-dated it)
The issue with that line of thinking is that NATO is a voluntary alliance. Generally speaking, here in eastern Europe, countries join NATO when they feel threatened by Russia. We’ve seen that pattern play out over and over: Russia plays brinksmanship over their border, violating airspace, testing limits, etc, and countries join. Finland and Sweden specifically joined in direct response to the Russo-Ukraine war.
A large part of the accusations of “tankie” is not agreeing with “Russia evil orcs, Ukrainians are perfect elven defenders of Western Civilization”.
I hope I’ve made it clear that that is not at all my point of view on the topic. Again, can’t talk for anyone else.
But ever acknowledging that Russia would be upset by the CIA helping to install a hostile government on its border, with plans to join a hostile military alliance, is tankieism.
The issue with this is that most of the countries involved have relatively recent memories of Russification, forced compliance with first the Russian Empire, then the USSR. I absolutely agree that the CIA would and has helped these movements, but as you say, the CIA can’t wave a magic wand and summon these movements. They have to exist, and they have to be large.
This has become significantly more apparent since 2022 where the actual conscripts that are grabbed off the streets are sent to their death as cannon fodder, so that Azov or Aidar can take advantage of the softened line and expended munitions to try to attack a possible weak point.
This sounds like an inversion of the classic “USSR/Russian meatwave” meme. It’s ridiculous when people talk about it when it comes to Russians, as if they have some mythical predisposition to throwing their soldiers lives away for no gain, and it’s equally ridiculous when people attribute that to the Ukrainian military. Both sides have suffered grueling losses due to the nature of the combat, and the learning curve with modern drone combat.
I hope though, while you’re almost definitely aware of the war crimes of the Azov and Aidar battalions, you’re also aware of the long list of war crimes of various Russian units. From the intentional striking of civilian targets (including hospitals), torture of civilians, abduction of children, gang rapes, and more. I 100% agree that Ukrainians aren’t ‘perfect elven defenders of the west’, but let’s be very very clear about what the Russian military is doing.
This sounds like an inversion of the classic “USSR/Russian meatwave” meme. It’s ridiculous when people talk about it when it comes to Russians, as if they have some mythical predisposition to throwing their soldiers lives away for no gain
It is not this inversion or repeating of propaganda. There has been a long stream of news about the press gangs and there seems to currently be an inflection point of Western Europe and US media needing to acknowledge the level of violent and desperate conscriptions over the last weeks (just to concretely cite a single source rather than keep being vague and handwavey, https://eventsinukraine.substack.com/ has tracked the use of conscription press gangs as a Ukrainian journalist that had been living in Ukraine). It is not just a “Human Meatwave” type of mentality, but an acknowledgement of the reality of the tragedy of Ukraine in this whole war. It was one of only a few former Soviet Republics to not have its per-capita GDP recover to its 1991 level after shock therapy and was considered the most corrupt nation on earth until the war motivated western sources to fake the numbers. The economic out-migration caused Ukraine to be in a deep demographic crisis before the war even started. The reason for the press gangs and very violent conscription is because of the population and manpower difference. Russia can throw away an equal amount of lives to Ukraine while only maintaining limited conscription, but Ukraine has to try to get as many able bodied men as it can.
The description came down to the ultra-nationalist/neo-nazi groups vs the conscripts. Because they are motivated by nationalism and views of racial supremacy, the neo-nazi groups have higher morale and are more dedicated than the conscripts pulled off the streets. This means that the conscripts are used in the high risk or earlier waves of any operation, since the neo-nazi groups are more valuable units due to their higher levels of training and esprit de corps.
I am pointing out in the original context of Kittenrulz and your denunciation of how tankies can’t accept that someone can be “against Russian Imperialism and US imperialsim” is actually the straw man. Again, I am sure you can find one loser somewhere to cherry pick that actually thinks that Russia and China are perfect and US is only evil. But your portrait of both Lemmy “tankies” and the “tankies” referenced by OP’s meme is just that they would not maintain a double standard for the US and its adversaries and that you are “nuanced” for not agreeing with 100% of what the US does while accepting the worst propaganda about its adversaries.
I pointed out your inclusion of Iran and Russia because again, opposing Lemmy “tankies” on Iran is them calling out support of the CIA and Mossad to expand the anti-government protests and providing material support like arms and Starlink terminals to aid the protests. It forces the unfortunate position of having to be wary due to consequences and not principle. I think the original Kittenrulz post brought this up but as terrible and flawed as Ghaddafi, Saddam Hussein, and Assad were, letting the US and their proxies overthrow and destroy their governments still made the lives of people in those countries much worse. For Russia, that was pointing out that there is much more vilification of Russians and willingness to sanction and undermine their economy and citizens than Americans even though just the Iraq war alone was an even worse and less justified war of aggression. Again, I am pointing out that all accusations of “tankie” boil down to just not maintaining this double standard. And I was working off of the original banning of Kittenrulz and you invoking the Russian Invasion. The accusations of “tankie” around the Russian-Ukraine war do boil down to having any explanations or understanding of the causes of the war beyond “Putin is evil, so he does evil things like invading countries”. Kittenrulz and most “tankies” do not say that it is good and just, though I will admit there are a minority that take Russia’s side due to the full embrace of overt Nazism within sectors of the Ukraine government and armed forces since 2014 and exacerbated by 2022. Though that was a convenient talking point for Russian officials rather than a real motivation, and the war empowering and legitimizing these Neo-nazi formations.
Thank you for not strawmanning me and actually walking through your experiences with others who are “anti-tankie” rather than assuming the worst of me.
I legitimately don’t have time to respond to absolutely all of this in huge detail, so assume that if I didn’t respond to a specific point I just didn’t have much to say about it.
I do generally agree with this in principle. The governmental structure of Iran, for example, makes a lot of sense if your explicit goal is to be as coup-proof as possible. This is very much a double-edged sword: a country built on legitimate paranoia often sees any protest as foreign interference, regardless of the reality.
Maybe I’m just taking crazy pills here, but most of the opinions on the war over seen here can be boiled down to “Evil Ukrainian Nazis bad, Russia good”. That is legitimately what I see during the rare moments I look over here.
It can’t be “some sectors” and a “full embrace” at the same time, can it? There were some well known units that were very explicitly neonazi, but at no point did they have any control over the civilian government or military high command.
Thank you for acknowledging that.
Again, at the expense of being strawmanned, this is enough to invoke “anti-tankie” rules. Most of the anti-tankie action in blahaj.zone, .world, and all the other liberals is acknowledging this. And taking into context that articles and opinions of “look at how evil and bad and irredeemable country and its people is” is apologizing for authoritarianism. If you are not cheering for the overthrow of the Iranian government simply because the US would do everything to make something worse result from it, you are a “tankie” and what blahaj and .world mean by the word.
I may be a little optimistic in how few people took seriously the Russian government’s official story of the invasion being entirely because of the overt Nazism of the Ukrainian armed forces and the explicit anti-Russian ethnosupremacy of the Ukranian government in their civil war that started in 2014, but it is still a minority. But I will say that I am worried that I am taking crazy pills. A large part of the accusations of “tankie” is not agreeing with “Russia evil orcs, Ukrainians are perfect elven defenders of Western Civilization”. I still stand by my previous statements of any attempt of explaining the Russian paranoia of a hostile military alliance moving closer to its borders (NATO was supposedly only supposed to defend against the Warsaw Pact, though NATO pre-dated it) and the fact that the US was attempting Color Revolutions on its border (I know that for invoking color revolutions I need to justify against anti-CIA bias. But color revolutions do take advantage and empower actual discontent of the local population, the CIA can’t summon governmental changes with a wave of a wand. It is just what the US government and media supports and legitimizes.) But ever acknowledging that Russia would be upset by the CIA helping to install a hostile government on its border, with plans to join a hostile military alliance, is tankieism.
Just like the Republican party can fully embrace MAGA but only some sectors of the US are Trump acolytes. Euromaidan produced very organized and energized neo-nazi groups like Azov Battalion, C-14, Aidar, etc. And even though they didn’t have a majority in the elected government, the fact that they had a very large amount of angry, motivated, and armed men with military supplies mean that the government knew they could not cross or displease them. They have taken priority and given special consideration due to the war of the last 12 years. An ethno-nationalist military formation will be more motivated and more willing to fight hard than a random conscript. This has become significantly more apparent since 2022 where the actual conscripts that are grabbed off the streets are sent to their death as cannon fodder, so that Azov or Aidar can take advantage of the softened line and expended munitions to try to attack a possible weak point. The war has legitimized these neo-nazi groups and empowered them as they have greater recruitment since you are less likely to have your life thrown away as cannon fodder if you enlist with them rather than wait to be conscripted and thrown against Russian drones. And they are legitimized by being the forces capturing territory and fighting off Russian advances as the normal rank and file are sacrificed for it.
After talking with you and seeing your opinions, I don’t think you’re a campist (or ‘tankie’). There’s way too much nuance for that. I may disagree with some of your points, but I follow your logic and you don’t seem to be just repeating propaganda. I obviously can’t speak for any instance admins or other users anywhere on the fediverse, I’m just talking for myself and my opinions.
The issue with that line of thinking is that NATO is a voluntary alliance. Generally speaking, here in eastern Europe, countries join NATO when they feel threatened by Russia. We’ve seen that pattern play out over and over: Russia plays brinksmanship over their border, violating airspace, testing limits, etc, and countries join. Finland and Sweden specifically joined in direct response to the Russo-Ukraine war.
I hope I’ve made it clear that that is not at all my point of view on the topic. Again, can’t talk for anyone else.
The issue with this is that most of the countries involved have relatively recent memories of Russification, forced compliance with first the Russian Empire, then the USSR. I absolutely agree that the CIA would and has helped these movements, but as you say, the CIA can’t wave a magic wand and summon these movements. They have to exist, and they have to be large.
This sounds like an inversion of the classic “USSR/Russian meatwave” meme. It’s ridiculous when people talk about it when it comes to Russians, as if they have some mythical predisposition to throwing their soldiers lives away for no gain, and it’s equally ridiculous when people attribute that to the Ukrainian military. Both sides have suffered grueling losses due to the nature of the combat, and the learning curve with modern drone combat.
I hope though, while you’re almost definitely aware of the war crimes of the Azov and Aidar battalions, you’re also aware of the long list of war crimes of various Russian units. From the intentional striking of civilian targets (including hospitals), torture of civilians, abduction of children, gang rapes, and more. I 100% agree that Ukrainians aren’t ‘perfect elven defenders of the west’, but let’s be very very clear about what the Russian military is doing.
It is not this inversion or repeating of propaganda. There has been a long stream of news about the press gangs and there seems to currently be an inflection point of Western Europe and US media needing to acknowledge the level of violent and desperate conscriptions over the last weeks (just to concretely cite a single source rather than keep being vague and handwavey, https://eventsinukraine.substack.com/ has tracked the use of conscription press gangs as a Ukrainian journalist that had been living in Ukraine). It is not just a “Human Meatwave” type of mentality, but an acknowledgement of the reality of the tragedy of Ukraine in this whole war. It was one of only a few former Soviet Republics to not have its per-capita GDP recover to its 1991 level after shock therapy and was considered the most corrupt nation on earth until the war motivated western sources to fake the numbers. The economic out-migration caused Ukraine to be in a deep demographic crisis before the war even started. The reason for the press gangs and very violent conscription is because of the population and manpower difference. Russia can throw away an equal amount of lives to Ukraine while only maintaining limited conscription, but Ukraine has to try to get as many able bodied men as it can.
The description came down to the ultra-nationalist/neo-nazi groups vs the conscripts. Because they are motivated by nationalism and views of racial supremacy, the neo-nazi groups have higher morale and are more dedicated than the conscripts pulled off the streets. This means that the conscripts are used in the high risk or earlier waves of any operation, since the neo-nazi groups are more valuable units due to their higher levels of training and esprit de corps.