You must log in or register to comment.
Your country is committing a genocide, who gives a fuck, lock in and deal with your own country’s issues first
Not that I particularly agree with the post but, the west in general is allowing a genocide to happen… I don’t think that should automatically sideline all other discourse. The schism of Korea is afterall largely due to the belligerence between two western powers.
As someone who’s lived in korea and has family on both sides of the DMZ, I haven’t seen an educated perspective over the schism in Korea on lemmy.
Out of curiosity, what do you think OP got wrong?
More of the characterization of the post and how it frames the idea of a democratic process, and that it’s significantly different from western democracies.
If I were to do the same with a western democracy like America it would be similar to - two party endorses separate candidates for Congress, the party both parties run on anti foreign interventions, no matter who is elected israel get unlimited support to do foreign intervention. The will of the people…
I think it means that posting weird unhinged shit like this is a waste of time which screams white mans burden.
Those who don’t live in Korea can’t change the politics of Korea, but what they can change are their country’s belligerent warring policies against the Korean Peninsula, which caused this crisis in the first place. At the end of the day, complaining and caring so much about the internal politics of another country, one which is opposed to the West, really just means that you’re justifying any future intervention or any future wars against that country. We saw it with Iran. It’s a country with many internal contradictions, but any criticism that people like us living in the west could say about it won’t change the internal politics of that country. All it does is it means it makes it easier for our governments to try and invade and subjugate the Iranian people.
Just the same with stupid bullshit like this. Who the fuck cares about the internal politics of Korea? I really doubt that the vast, vast majority of people who see something like this would even begin to understand the actual internal politics. Myself, honestly included. You know what I do care about? The fact that my country and a coalition of other members of the United Nations killed 20% of the North Korean population during the Korean War in the 50s. I care about the fact that the United States implemented the same exact system of policing that previously existed under the Japanese Empire in the South. I care about my country subjugating others because I live in my country and I can change my country. You know what country I can’t change, and clearly the author of this post cannot change? Korea.
So when I say shit like this is a waste of time, it’s because it’s a waste of time. We’re not going to be changing the internal politics of Korea. The only thing we can do in countries outside of it is basically be asking our countries to intervene, which only would exacerbate any existing issues, and in fact is the cause of many of the current issues in Korea.
Those who don’t live in Korea can’t change the politics of Korea, but what they can change are their country’s belligerent warring policies against the Korean Peninsula, which caused this crisis in the first place.
Ehhhh… People in Korea haven’t really been in charge of their internal politics for the last hundred years.
At the end of the day, complaining and caring so much about the internal politics of another country, one which is opposed to the West, really just means that you’re justifying any future intervention or any future wars against that country.
Or it gives space to be critical of foreign intervention in general. As I said, I didn’t claim to agree with the original post. However, I think people talking about Korea and creating discourse in the West about the peninsula as a whole is important.
really just means that you’re justifying any future intervention or any future wars against that country.
I think that depends on what you are saying and how your audio responds. Just telling people not to talk about a subject isn’t going to help anything. Critical support is still support, and unlimited uncritical support is just kinda silly.
Who the fuck cares about the internal politics of Korea? I really doubt that the vast, vast majority of people who see something like this would even begin to understand the actual internal politics.
I mean, I do, as I am Korean. And I wish more people were more educated about the subject, especially since it comes up on lemmy so often.
You know what I do care about? The fact that my country and a coalition of other members of the United Nations killed 20% of the North Korean population during the Korean War in the 50s.
And you think that same force doesn’t shape the internal politics of Korea on both sides of the dmz?
I care about the fact that the United States implemented the same exact system of policing that previously existed under the Japanese Empire in the South.
That’s kinda a hideous conflation imo. Not because the US doesn’t have a horrible history of supporting dictators and criminals in the south… But mostly because westerners just have very little idea just how bad Japanese occupation was, it was literally genocidal.
You know what country I can’t change, and clearly the author of this post cannot change? Korea.
I could claim the same thing about you, the author, and America. Neither of you is going to change the country as individuals, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have a nuanced opinion over a country that is important on the geopolitical scale.
So when I say shit like this is a waste of time, it’s because it’s a waste of time. We’re not going to be changing the internal politics of Korea. The only thing we can do in countries outside of it is basically be asking our countries to intervene, which only would exacerbate any existing issues, and in fact is the cause of many of the current issues in Korea.
To me this sounds like typical colonialism dismissiveness. The west, including both the United States and the Soviet Union have already shaped the form in which the internal politics of Korea occur. To simply dismiss any criticism of either side as to wipe your hands clean of the situation is unintelligible.
You can’t just hide the mess western powers made by sweeping it under the rug and then claim it’s for our own good.
The country I’m in and global order that most other Lemmy users are in is in fact at war with Korea. It’s not nuanced to make some kind of weird fucking image like exists at the head of this post, when our society is at war with Korea, all it does is justify intervention in Korea and demonize those who don’t want to spend billions of dollars fighting a war overseas that helps nobody on the planet except for the billionaire class.
The proper approach to take is is that, sure, issues exist in places abroad, of course, but it’s not our place to dictate those, and in fact, by trying to dictate those, we only give fuel to the war machine, which wastes lives and sends money directly to billionaires. It’s difficult to change one’s own society, but one has to do it in concert with many others. But there’s nobody in concert to change another society except with the government of yours that wants to declare war on it.
Right now, the Korean Peninsula is split solidly in half between the resistance forces that freed it from Japanese occupation and those who collaborated with American intervention. That’s just a fact. Just because it was founded by resistance fighters doesn’t mean it’s a society without issues. But our society going to war with it only exacerbates those issues and doesn’t allow it to develop. If Korea and the Korena people were truly allowed to dictate its own fate and its own future free from foreign intervention, who knows if it would look the same it does today? Very likely not! Societies are able to develop when they don’t have to be fighting wars against imperial domination by powers like the United States, England, etc. In fact, we’ve seen it in Iran. There were many people who were trying to bring about serious changes to the state of women’s issues and queer issues in Iran, who had been forced to side with the government because of American intervention. It was their right to do those things, and they were engaged in it until the United States forced Iranian people to all stand in one front against American imperial domination.
So, no. Smearing an anti-imperialist stance as somehow dismissive colonialism isn’t right. It’s in fact quite the opposite. It’s the approach that societies and people within them should be free to choose their destiny without external colonial interference that attitudes like the white chauvinist one from the OP only empower. That stance is innately anti-imperialist. Whether you like the government of Korea or not, it’s not like the people really have a choice while they’re under war and siege by the American Empire. Do you want Korean society to change for the better? Then you have to advocate against the empire wherever you live in it.
The country I’m in and global order that most other Lemmy users are in is in fact at war with Korea. It’s not nuanced to make some kind of weird fucking image like exists at the head of this post, when our society is at war with Korea, all it does is justify intervention in Korea and demonize those who don’t want to spend billions of dollars fighting a war overseas that helps nobody on the planet except for the billionaire class.
Again, I’m not claiming to agree with the post. My point was that simply because you are not from the country doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t have discourse about the conflict there. I think this whole comment section is a chance to educate people about a topic most people normally only get highly biased takes over, even if it the topic is originally broached via a mischaracterization.
Right now, the Korean Peninsula is split solidly in half between the resistance forces that freed it from Japanese occupation and those who collaborated with American intervention. That’s just a fact.
That’s a gross oversimplification that completely glosses over the Soviet s role in shaping North Korea. Yes, American intervention in the South is markedly worse. However, that doesn’t negate the fact that the Soviet union did not allow the North to govern itself independently, and that has led to the Kim family purging some of the greatest minds in modern Korean history. The Soviet Union and America both agreed in 1945 to split responsibility of the nation in two, and they both ignorantly installed leaders based solely on their estimation on who would be most easily controlled.
Just because it was founded by resistance fighters doesn’t mean it’s a society without issues. But our society going to war with it only exacerbates those issues and doesn’t allow it to develop.
Right, but talking about a country does not mean you’re advocating for a foreign intervention. Your argument is based on an idea that discourse always has negative outcomes, and I just don’t think that holds much weight. Nothing in anything I’ve stated has supported foreign intervention, none of your arguments are aimed at anything I’ve been saying.
So, no. Smearing an anti-imperialist stance as somehow dismissive colonialism isn’t right. It’s in fact quite the opposite.
You didn’t make an anti-imperialist stance. You stated people not from the country in question have a right to speak about it. I’m completely fine with smearing an anti-imperialist stance. By ending discourse you end the conversation before people can actually rebute the imperialism, or even explain the negative outcomes of foreign intervention.
It’s the approach that societies and people within them should be free to choose their destiny without external colonial interference that attitudes like the white chauvinist one from the OP only empower.
The current problems in North Korea can also be easily be traced back to the Soviets role in empowering Kim il sung instead of Pak Hon-yong, or any other of the founders of the Korean Communist party.
Do you want Korean society to change for the better? Then you have to advocate against the empire wherever you live in it.
Kinda sounds like a white person telling a Korean person what’s best for Korea…not chauvinist at all…
I can advocate against American imperialism and offer critical support to a country that is also a victim of foreign meddling by a former global power exerting its control upon my own people. What I won’t do is listen to some virtue signaling white preach at me, when it’s clear they don’t even care to actually learn the history of my people.
You’re boxing ghosts, if you live in the imperial territories, your only possibility to change things is inside those imperial territories. I grew up in the United States which Jose Marti referred to as the belly of the beast. I am speaking from my own perspective as a white American. We do not have the right to dictate Korean people or Korean politics.
What many white Americans and other privileged people of the imperial territories pass of as critique is really white chauvinism in disguise, not seriously attempting to understand the systems or people that their empire is trying to crush. I’ve done my best to try and educate myself on Korean history and politics as I can as an outsider, but I don’t think it’s relevant to the ultimate and final point that those living in the imperial territories should advocate against their empire at all costs.
You can browbeat me all you want if you’d like, but it doesn’t mean anything because I know the following principles are true
- This post was made by a member of the imperial core
- This post doesn’t try to seriously engage with Korean politics, but instead to ridicule it from a place of chauvinism and to try and decry socialism as they see it
- Weirdo racist shit that conforms to the two prior points should be dorked on and made fun of
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t seriously engage and discuss this stuff. I think if it’s relevant to you and you would like to, why not? But obviously weirdo racist shit, like the posts that we’re commenting under, is clearly not contributing to any greater understanding of Korean politics and instead seeks to demonize an entire society, which at the end of the day makes American intervention easier.
You’re boxing ghosts, if you live in the imperial territories, your only possibility to change things is inside those imperial territories. I grew up in the United States which Jose Marti referred to as the belly of the beast. I am speaking from my own perspective as a white American. We do not have the right to dictate Korean people or Korean politics.
You are again framing this as if I am attempting to dictate how other countries are governed. Educating people about other countries and how western imperialism has affected them throughout history has nothing to do with that.
What many white Americans and other privileged people of the imperial territories pass of as critique is really white chauvinism in disguise, not seriously attempting to understand the systems or people that their empire is trying to crush.
And westerners who are only critical of history through the lens of a campist perspective are also a form of white chauvinism. The Soviet Union was a white European state that interjected itself onto Korean history as well. Just because they were not as bad as the US does not give them a free pass to unlimited uncritical support.
- This post was made by a member of the imperial core
- This post doesn’t try to seriously engage with Korean politics, but instead to ridicule it from a place of chauvinism and to try and decry socialism as they see it
- Weirdo racist shit that conforms to the two prior points should be dorked on and made fun of
You are again ignoring the fact that I never said you shouldnt be critical of the post, I am critical of the post. I am rejecting how you critiqued the post.
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t seriously engage and discuss this stuff. I think if it’s relevant to you and you would like to, why not?
You did several times…
But obviously weirdo racist shit, like the posts that we’re commenting under, is clearly not contributing to any greater understanding of Korean politics and instead seeks to demonize an entire society, which at the end of the day makes American intervention easier.
If you would have just originally posted this, I wouldn’t have any issues with it.
What country is that
You speak English so, statistically speaking, whatever country you’re in
Fortunately, no. But leftists really need to band together internationally, not divide along Nationalist lines. Blaming people for their government is the kind of logic that is used to justify the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
But leftists really need to band together internationally, not divide along Nationalist lines
Then what the fuck are you doing posting shit criticizing democracy in the dprk, a country inherently more democratic than any fucking country you could possibly be posting from by virtue of not being capitalist
Don’t want the next leftist revolution to take notes from North Korea.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
How does Kim’s boot taste?
country inherently more democratic than any fucking country you could possibly be posting from by virtue of not being capitalist
Democracy isn’t inherently tied to any economic system. A country could democratically elect to be fascist or socialist. I think being critical of North Korea for their lack of democratic process is a legitimate argument, but you would also have to argue that democracy is always good.
Your contention with his statement should be that democracy isn’t the highest pursuit of social virtue.
Removed by mod
The post describes a democratic process while criticizing its “lack of democratic process”
I’m not the op, but I assume they are critical of the quality of the democratic process.
contention with the statement is that OP has shit for brains and doesn’t understand what democracy actually is
I don’t really know what you are utilizing for your definition of democracy?
Capitalism and democracy are mutually exclusive, instead of arguing with me you can argue with Albert Einstein about it:
Again… I would argue that democracy does not equate to equity. I also didn’t claim that democracy is inherently virtuous.
I think my critique of your statement claiming that “North Korea was more democratic because they weren’t capitalist” could be boiled down to that North Korea isn’t more democratic, but democracy isn’t the end all be all of virtuosity that western culture likes to project.
Basically how every Bolshevik inspired “democracy” works too, not just Korea. Including Cuba which leftists bizarrely love to pretend is somehow better.
Cuba which leftists bizarrely love to pretend is somehow better.
Not better than cuba under Batista or not better than North Korea? I think either claim would be kinda dubious…
In terms of democracy they’re all about equal. Essentially none.
Eh… I don’t think the Democratic process can be measured in a binary pass or fail. There are definitely degrees of Democratic process, and I think the claim that Cuba and North Korea are virtually the same is a pretty large conflation.
Cuba at least has local elections which are vetted by the party. Meanwhile North Korea has single candidate elections that are pre-approved by the party.
If we’re just throwing nuance out the window, I’m not really sure if a country like America would really pass the “true democracy” test.
What’s the difference between vetted and pre-approved?
I would also fail the US, true.
In Cuba there are actual local elections between members of the local community. Those competing must be in good standing with the party, but that’s fairly standard.
In N Korea the party selects the candidate and they run unopposed.
Interesting. But requiring being in good standing with the party is already enough to make these elections illegitimate. And given the lack of dissent allowed and the subservient position local officials typically have to national leaders this seems like a very small difference to me.
Interesting. But requiring being in good standing with the party is already enough to make these elections illegitimate.
There are plenty of political parties across the world that require candidates to be in good standing with the party before running for them in an election.
It’s not like any political party is going to be happy if an infamous person is representing them in an election.
If anything your grievance should be with single party democracies. Then again, there are plenty of single party states that aren’t criticized anywhere close to Cuba.
Like I said, democracies need to be weighed on a scale. Plus, simply being a democracy doesn’t necessarily mean a country is going to be a more equitable or virtuous society.
What’s the difference between vetted and pre-approved?
The difference is one election has more than one candidate to choose from and the election must be vetted by the state, and one election has just one candidate whom the state has already selected, and your vote doesn’t matter because the winner has already been decided.
My understanding was that Cuba also only had single candidate “elections”, chosen by the party. You’re saying that’s not correct?
I don’t know if that’s the case, I was just clarifying the notions put forth by the user you were replying to.
Do you have a single source for this belief or is it something you intuited from the aether?
…North Korea has local elections and the candidates, plural, have to live in the community they’re running to oversee.
Juche is set up pretty similar to China’s democracy at the lower levels, which isn’t surprising because of the influence of Mao.
North Korea has local elections and the candidates, plural, have to live in the community they’re running to oversee.
Wasn’t the dual-candidate selection method only introduced in selected localities in like the last year or so? I’m pretty sure the SPA is still a single candidate selection as well.
How is Cuba a Bolshevik inspired democracy? The fact that you even claim this indicates you don’t know what the Bolshevik approach was.
It’s very clearly modeled after the government of the USSR, which was created by the Bolsheviks. I’ve seriously never heard anyone claim otherwise so maybe you can elaborate on whatever the hell you are talking about.
All power to the worker’s councils
