Voting is fine as long as you are aware that it does nothing to materially prevent fascism. It can’t hurt anything to write something on a piece of paper. But the problem isnt really people like you. Its liberals who believe that voting is the be all end all of their political responsibility.
Electoral democracy is ultimately a misdirection. Capitalists are the actual sources of political power in western democracies. They unfortunately have a vested interest in the state getting more fascist and actually have the power to effect that change. So long as everyone looks down at the ballot box and then goes home to do nothing of material difference for the next 4 years, fascists will only continue to gain ground until they can do away with the misdirection of electoralism entirely.
Voting cannot be the only thing you do. Or you are effectively doing nothing. Which you seem to understand, but liberals do not. They actually want all other forms of political action banned. Because liberals ultimately protect capitalists, who are the real sources of political power. Leftist political action is a threat to capitalists. Thusly, liberals condemn it and recommend voting instead.
What I’m saying is that not voting is foolish, not that voting is the only thing that should be done. In fact I’m saying that other things should be done. We clearly agree, I just think it is harmful to spread anti voting rhetoric because while it can’t fix things it is still a meaningful thing that can be done with immediate consequences for many.
We do agree. I only said anything in the first place because I didn’t really see this post as advocating an anti-voting position. I would see anti-voting agitation as more along the lines of “Do not vote. Voting itself is harmful.” As opposed to “voting doesn’t work” or “voting is ineffective” which I see as more along the lines of criticism of electoral democracy and agitation for collective action.
One post implied voting blue was voting for fascism, implying you shouldn’t for the dems in the US. My point is that this is shortsighted and harmful. People should vote for the dems unless a third party is a viable alternative, they should also build up third parties to make them viable options, and they should also join political orgs and unionize, and do direct action.
Ofc more than voting is needed, but the republicans are causing more harm than the dems would have by miles and contributing to more voter apathy is not the answer.
The Democrats and Republicans do differ on the timescales for the social murder they promote, as well as the out-groups they view as acceptable to target.
I can agree that Republicans are causing more harm in the moment. However rather than blaming commenters online for rising voter apathy I blame that on the Democrats for their warmongering, suppression of internal opposition, genocidal ‘foreign policy’, and their utter subservience to capital when it comes to improving things domestically.
Please. Yes ofc the dems are to blame. They suck. And ofc they will lead to fascism down the line. Let’s just not make things worse than they have to in the moment.
Voting is fine as long as you are aware that it does nothing to materially prevent fascism.
There is no such thing as preventing fascism. It’s a fight every generation has to win, no matter what government they live under. It’s always about delay so we can fight it again tomorrow.
It’s always about delay so we can fight it again tomorrow.
But delay can’t be all that it is, there also has to be something to fight for and some conceivable path to success. Especially, if your delay tactic demands also demands disowning any other tactics used by others.
Its liberals who believe that voting is the be all end all of their political responsibility.
I’ll take a liberal who believes voting is the be all end all of their political responsibility over a “leftist” who believes not voting, and encouraging others not to vote, is the be all end all of their political responsibility.
Electoral democracy is ultimately a misdirection. Capitalists are the actual sources of political power in western democracies.
Yes, but a large source of that power is influencing electoral democracy. It does work, but all it does is reflect the choice of the people¹. It’s just that the people have been manipulated into counterproductive choices for so long. A defeatist approach to voting is one of those choices.
No, voting can’t be the only thing you do. But it should be one of the things you do, and you should do it intelligently. Yes, we all want a more representative electoral mechanic, but until we get it we need to accept the properties of the field we’re playing on and act accordingly.
¹ Gerrymandering, voter suppression, and all the other ways of skewing democracy away from the actual will of the people only proves the point further. They wouldn’t be bothering with all that if elections didn’t have power.
“leftist” who believes not voting, and encouraging others not to vote, is the be all end all of their political responsibility.
That’s a strawman if I’ve ever seen one. Nobody saying that “electoralism is a sham” is saying that’s the “be all end all of their political responsibility.” They just generally have a broader definition of “political responsibility”.
Nobody saying that “electoralism is a sham” is saying that’s the “be all end all of their political responsibility.” They just generally have a broader definition of “political responsibility”.
Yeah that hasn’t been my experience. Especially in the last election cycle, I saw a lot of that supposed strawman. No community engagement, no actual political engagement, no workplace engagement, just “Kamala bad”. People who insisted that not voting or voting third party would send a message. Don’t pretend they don’t exist, I’ve talked to dozens.
I stand by my statement. All else equal, a liberal who does nothing except vote Democrat is better by far than a “leftist” who does nothing except tell people not to vote Democrat.
I don’t see it and that’s why I asked. Could you clarify?
People who insisted that not voting or voting third party would send a message.
Ah, I misunderstood your classifications. I would definitely lump those people in with the “liberals who do nothing except vote” crowd, not the “electoralism is a scam” leftists.
The claim was that electoral democracy was a misdirection, my point is that all the effort to manipulate it demonstrates that it is the seat of power, and the oligarchs have merely occupied it.
I would definitely lump those people in with the “liberals who do nothing except vote” crowd
Since they’re defined by not voting, they aren’t. They are, materially speaking, equivalent to anti-electoralists. The liberals are at least voting for plausible harm reduction.
my point is that all the effort to manipulate it demonstrates that it is the seat of power
That’s not at all what I mean about it being a false choice.
That’s one hell of a hasty generalization. Putting effort into something doesn’t make it materially valuable or useful. Lawns aren’t a useful cash crop, valuable export or critical infrastructure despite the ludicrous amount of resources spent on maintaining them.
Since they’re defined by not voting, they aren’t.
Within the framework of a representative democracy not voting when you don’t have representation is the same as voting for someone who isn’t representative of your interests.
Within the framework of a representative democracy not voting when you don’t have representation is the same as voting for someone who isn’t representative of your interests.
Within the framework of FPTP elections they are different. Voting against the person who is least representative, no matter how marginally, is better than not voting.
Voting is fine as long as you are aware that it does nothing to materially prevent fascism. It can’t hurt anything to write something on a piece of paper. But the problem isnt really people like you. Its liberals who believe that voting is the be all end all of their political responsibility.
Electoral democracy is ultimately a misdirection. Capitalists are the actual sources of political power in western democracies. They unfortunately have a vested interest in the state getting more fascist and actually have the power to effect that change. So long as everyone looks down at the ballot box and then goes home to do nothing of material difference for the next 4 years, fascists will only continue to gain ground until they can do away with the misdirection of electoralism entirely.
Voting cannot be the only thing you do. Or you are effectively doing nothing. Which you seem to understand, but liberals do not. They actually want all other forms of political action banned. Because liberals ultimately protect capitalists, who are the real sources of political power. Leftist political action is a threat to capitalists. Thusly, liberals condemn it and recommend voting instead.
What I’m saying is that not voting is foolish, not that voting is the only thing that should be done. In fact I’m saying that other things should be done. We clearly agree, I just think it is harmful to spread anti voting rhetoric because while it can’t fix things it is still a meaningful thing that can be done with immediate consequences for many.
We do agree. I only said anything in the first place because I didn’t really see this post as advocating an anti-voting position. I would see anti-voting agitation as more along the lines of “Do not vote. Voting itself is harmful.” As opposed to “voting doesn’t work” or “voting is ineffective” which I see as more along the lines of criticism of electoral democracy and agitation for collective action.
He did in an earlier post posted shortly before this one, and the title seems to reinforce this. The image itself doesn’t.
title:" you can’t make the system better by voting"
image: “you can’t vote fascism away”
seems pretty consistent, voting is not going to make the US less fascist
One post implied voting blue was voting for fascism, implying you shouldn’t for the dems in the US. My point is that this is shortsighted and harmful. People should vote for the dems unless a third party is a viable alternative, they should also build up third parties to make them viable options, and they should also join political orgs and unionize, and do direct action.
Ofc more than voting is needed, but the republicans are causing more harm than the dems would have by miles and contributing to more voter apathy is not the answer.
The Democrats and Republicans do differ on the timescales for the social murder they promote, as well as the out-groups they view as acceptable to target.
I can agree that Republicans are causing more harm in the moment. However rather than blaming commenters online for rising voter apathy I blame that on the Democrats for their warmongering, suppression of internal opposition, genocidal ‘foreign policy’, and their utter subservience to capital when it comes to improving things domestically.
Please. Yes ofc the dems are to blame. They suck. And ofc they will lead to fascism down the line. Let’s just not make things worse than they have to in the moment.
There is no such thing as preventing fascism. It’s a fight every generation has to win, no matter what government they live under. It’s always about delay so we can fight it again tomorrow.
But delay can’t be all that it is, there also has to be something to fight for and some conceivable path to success. Especially, if your delay tactic demands also demands disowning any other tactics used by others.
I’ll take a liberal who believes voting is the be all end all of their political responsibility over a “leftist” who believes not voting, and encouraging others not to vote, is the be all end all of their political responsibility.
Yes, but a large source of that power is influencing electoral democracy. It does work, but all it does is reflect the choice of the people¹. It’s just that the people have been manipulated into counterproductive choices for so long. A defeatist approach to voting is one of those choices.
No, voting can’t be the only thing you do. But it should be one of the things you do, and you should do it intelligently. Yes, we all want a more representative electoral mechanic, but until we get it we need to accept the properties of the field we’re playing on and act accordingly.
¹ Gerrymandering, voter suppression, and all the other ways of skewing democracy away from the actual will of the people only proves the point further. They wouldn’t be bothering with all that if elections didn’t have power.
And when the choices are all false ones?
That’s a strawman if I’ve ever seen one. Nobody saying that “electoralism is a sham” is saying that’s the “be all end all of their political responsibility.” They just generally have a broader definition of “political responsibility”.
Yeah, that was exactly my point.
Yeah that hasn’t been my experience. Especially in the last election cycle, I saw a lot of that supposed strawman. No community engagement, no actual political engagement, no workplace engagement, just “Kamala bad”. People who insisted that not voting or voting third party would send a message. Don’t pretend they don’t exist, I’ve talked to dozens.
I stand by my statement. All else equal, a liberal who does nothing except vote Democrat is better by far than a “leftist” who does nothing except tell people not to vote Democrat.
I don’t see it and that’s why I asked. Could you clarify?
Ah, I misunderstood your classifications. I would definitely lump those people in with the “liberals who do nothing except vote” crowd, not the “electoralism is a scam” leftists.
The claim was that electoral democracy was a misdirection, my point is that all the effort to manipulate it demonstrates that it is the seat of power, and the oligarchs have merely occupied it.
Since they’re defined by not voting, they aren’t. They are, materially speaking, equivalent to anti-electoralists. The liberals are at least voting for plausible harm reduction.
That’s not at all what I mean about it being a false choice.
That’s one hell of a hasty generalization. Putting effort into something doesn’t make it materially valuable or useful. Lawns aren’t a useful cash crop, valuable export or critical infrastructure despite the ludicrous amount of resources spent on maintaining them.
Within the framework of a representative democracy not voting when you don’t have representation is the same as voting for someone who isn’t representative of your interests.
Within the framework of FPTP elections they are different. Voting against the person who is least representative, no matter how marginally, is better than not voting.