It feel like we’re losing to Google, day by day. They aren’t killing AOSP directly, but they are making it useless step by step.
Now it’s Google Play Services, Play Integrity checks, installation source checks… more and more apps just refuse to run without GMS. Banking apps? Most of them don’t work. And it’s only getting worse. I run vanilla AOSP on my main profile, no Play Services. I keep GMS only in my work profile for the apps that absolutely need it. But now even some regular apps that don’t need any play services won’t work on my main profile anymore. They simply block your from running , like le chat.
Maps is google’s most important app there is no way to run without play services. Sure we can use webview or gmaps wv, but they don’t provide turn-by-turn directions. Earlier maps used to work without play services, but two years ago, an update stopped it from working. Now that old version is out of date and no longer works.
Google is slowly making GMS very important to run. The problem with GMS is they require to run as system app and has to have all the permissions by default.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
If we keep going on like this, AOSP can only run fdroid apps in the future.
Maps?
Use OsmAnd and MagicEarth? I’ve been doping it for years now. Works fine.
Of the largest android sellers, only samsung requires gplay. Xiaomi, vivo, oppo, realme, honor, are all chinese companies that require non-bundled google play for their domestic (and maybe other countries?) releases. Google can’t alienate these sellers, and if they did, all of these companies would create their own AOSP fork (or just switch to HarmonyOS)
I recently bought a xiaomi android tablet that doesn’t have google play services luckily.
If the goal is too swap one parasite for another, this is a valid strategy BUT
Custom ROM is the only proper solution, ideally GrapheneOS, if you actually care about security and privacy.
I use Shelter to enable the work profile. It permits to copy apps between standard and work profile. So it is possible to have google services (with an account set I mean) in the work profile.
Apps like for Banks can’t be copied though. But most of the others can.
It is only slightly on topic, but I’d like to give a hateful shout out to Ticketmaster/Live Nation’s new “mobile only” ticketed events that require you to have an iPhone or fully Google blessed Android phone. They do not allow you to use a QR code or printed ticket anymore, only their app with a constantly changing bare code or Google wallet (unsure of the IOS experience).
I am going to a concert this weekend and I either have to dig up some old phone that can work with this app or sell my tickets.
Someone rectnly crack their shit code. Can use offline app after extract secret once. Will link once find.
Thanks, that might be a handy workaround.
I’ve never had an issue loading my tickets in the browser.
Then you weren’t at one of the new “mobile only” ticket events. https://help.ticketmaster.com/hc/en-us/articles/9786597785617-How-do-I-use-Mobile-Entry-tickets
We are in war with big tech, why would anyone think they would just let us win without a fight.
EU won’t be too friendly either given the nature of their recent identification app. You should still write to your legislators, but they’re a mostly tech-illiterate bunch, so expect it to be a low ROI activity.
Really do consider donating to projects like GrapheneOS. The GrapheneOS team are a very passionate and clever group, and I’d like to think that they can at least give us something to work with, even if Google completely cuts the cord. Hopefully they can also secure an additional revenue stream once they release their own phone.
If it really does all fall through and there’s no deGoogled way to run Android apps, I’ll keep a separate phone, preferably with a removable battery, with regular Android just to host the proprietary apps. Treat it as a work phone, i.e. power off when not needed, don’t connect to my main home network, don’t do anything that doesn’t need to be done on it. Proprietary apps only make up a small fraction of my mobile workflow, so everything else stays on another phone that respects my privacy.
they’re a mostly tech-illiterate bunch
Y’all keep saying this… These people are not stupid, they are corrupt. Start calling spade a spade. You are giving them something to hide behind jfc.
Yeah, this is a problem. I attempted to switch to GrapheneOS just a month ago and had to roll back to stock Android. One of my banking apps worked, but 3 others didn’t. My 2FA app didn’t work. I stopped receiving important texts as they were previously RCS and that refused to validate no matter what I did.
Google has made it extremely hard to degoogle.
One of my banking apps worked, but 3 others didn’t.
Same issue, I just did web browser instead
My 2FA app didn’t work.
I suggest just exporting and using a different 2FA app, especially an open source one like Aegis
I stopped receiving important texts as they were previously RCS and that refused to validate no matter what
RCS on GrapheneOS is very finicky and requires using AppOps to enable
READ_DEVICE_IDENTIFIERS, and you have to let carrier services and google messages have more permissions to work. You also might have to deregister your previous phone to use the number (i.e. my old iPhone still had my number in the settings, had to remove it). There’s a very long GrapheneOS thread about it, but the link should be the solution.Why not just access your financial institutions in a web browser?
That was an inconvenience, but one I could make if it was the only issue. It was more the total accumulation of things. My 2FA app pulling support for “unsigned” operating systems coupled with missing work texts due to RCS failure were the main straws to break the camel’s back. Having to find an alternative and then manually change all 2FA was almost a deal breaker in itself. That played into using a web browser for my financial institution access.
There is always a trade-off with privacy and security. It’s totally okay to decide you prefer convenience over privacy.
If you wanted to give it another shot:
- You could use a different 2FA app - I know Bitwarden works well
- You can use a soft phone SMS, bonus that you can send and receive from a computer
Missing texts is definitely a deal breaker. I hate how RCS was championed as the “open” protocol and yet only google and samsung are able to implement it… we were lied to. Or i feel lied to idk i thought it was an open knowledge spec when we were hearing about forcing apple to support it.
Convenience and security probably.
The website version of a lot of banks require you login (each time) with a customer numer and then random letters from your password and or pin, which takes forever so I never bother unless I need the website.
Im (more) paranoid whenever I use a sensitive website. Quadruple checking the domain name, am i on https (even tho i use no-http and have a password manager). It’s a bit more relaxing using an app.
Theres probably some security downsides (other than user error), but a modern banking site shouldn’t suffer much since they invest heavily in locking down their shtuff.
With respect to 2FA, if you want to be more ready for any future next time, you could migrate to an open-source TOTP app. E.g. andOTP. I use this one, it’s fine. The underlying standards don’t change in decades, so you can choose any compatible client and be without trouble for years and years. And it may be good to do in any case, googlified phone or not. Good apps also tend to provide password-protected backups.
I have no knowledge about RCS though, never used it so can’t tell. Otherwise GrapheneOS user for ~2 years, before that LineageOS, before that CopperheadOS for another few years.
Google has made it extremely hard to degoogle.
Just remember that there are no nice reasons why they are working this hard to keep your phone captive.
We can argue about how bad it will get, but there’s only worse things coming from this effort.
Oh, totally, which is why I am working towards as much decoupling as possible. I plan to replace my Nest gear with Ubiquity for cameras and stuff as I can afford it, and eventually set up my own offline automation server. This can only end badly for consumers.
The collusion between services like Authy and Google indicates this to me, but it’s also effective and means I have to pivot in slower degrees. I am encountering similar issues moving to Linux from Windows, so this is a full Silicone Valley issue.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
I doubt they will put any pressure. EU decided to rely on GMS for their upcoming Digital ID app. While they claim they want to switch to open source alternatives of big tech services, they designed their app so that it forces EU citizens to either comply with Google’s ToS, or Apple’s.
Related discussion: https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technical-specification/issues/18
The app is reference implementation, not supposed to be used.
Furthermore, they do not seem particularly open to criticism on this subject…
I highly reccomend comaps which has turn-by-turn directions and doesn’t require Google services.
transit routing still doesn’t work iirc, though gtfs stuff is in development
CoMaps is quite nice.
There are also still companies selling navigation devices that mount in a car windshield, assuming the car doesn’t already have one built in.
Pro tip - those navigation devices also often have an accident camera that records if it feels an impact - which is a good idea anyway.
Wow, supports Android Auto too!
Edit: Says it supports Android Auto, to be clear - not tested by me, and issue(s) reported below.
I run GrapheneOS and organic maps was working fine with android auto. You have to enter in developer options to allow third party apps tho. I was using it in a restricted profile with only proprietary apps (like banking apps). Comaps is a fork of organic maps so it should work too.
You sure about this? I haven’t been able to get it, or any other maps app on GrapheneOS, to play nice with Android Auto.
Not at all, no! Just going off the support article that says it does. Only just installed it, will try it out with my car this weekend at the latest.
Please respond back if you can get it to work, navigation has always been a big sticking point with using GrapheneOS.
Le Chat is just a frontend for Mistral. There are a ton of free web UIs one can use for chat instead, like (ironically) Google AI Studio, Deepseek, Z AI. Or openrouter if you’re willing to pay for a bit of privacy. Or kobold lite. Or your own self hosted Open Web UI instance.
Linux phone operating systems aren’t ready for daily use yet, but they are being actively developed. https://linmob.net/
I can’t wait for when they are ready!
It’ll be awhile. They’ve been in a development state since the launch of the original pinephone in 2020. And even the pinephone is going to be unavailable in two years as pine64 is ceasing sales on it. Not trying to crap on devs. I bought two pinephones (Braveheart & Mobian bundle). Tested multiple distros and excitedly followed their progress for years. I never had a reliable working phone in that four year span. IMO SailfishOS and Post Market OS are the two most usable mobile distros. SailfishOS now requires an ongoing subscription to use which I don’t like.
Sailfish only needs a subscription to get updates, you can use it without a sub.
I use danctnix on my pinephone, which is basically arch. It does the basics, that’s about it. What’s missing is more convenient apps. Most of the stuff is catered to desktop.
Of all the OSes I tried, I liked ubports the best, but it was not updated and not all hardware worked iirc, and suffered the same problem of apps. At least arch gets updated constantly.
Actively developed sure but Linux phones are a solution looking for a problem. Who wants to run scaled down desktop apps on their phone and who wants a terminal on a phone either? I may be a Linux enthusiast but I want a phone that simply works.
A Linux phone doesn’t need to be, and definitely shouldn’t be, a scaled down desktop. There would obviously need to be some purpose built phone apps made, but I am pretty sure the existing Linux phones already do these, they aren’t really breaking new ground here. The whole point would be to have a workable modern phone that isn’t under Google or Apple’s greedy untrustworthy thumbs.
Have you acturally tried Postmarketos or any mobile Linux interface? I have and its just a scaled down Linux desktop.
I have used postmarketOS, and I thought the interface (Plasma Mobile) was OK, but could use some improvements. How long ago did you use it?
Edit: Now that I think about it, I think the last time I tried the Pinephone it was using Manjaro, not postmarketOS. I have used that before though, but you may want to give it another try as it is vastly improved IMO. That being said, the Pinephone itself still kinda sucks from a hardware perspective.
the problem is that google is capable of slurping all of your data and your phone becomes an enhanced avenue for access; the linux phones are the solution to this.
i’m convinced that the “it just works” mantra is the reason why google or apple or microsoft is able to do this sort of asshattery and i can understand why people would want something that simply works.
however, the trade off for this mantra is that you’re giving yourself over to a corporation that not only doesn’ t have your best interest at heart but has proven will happily sell your control for a penny.
i can also understand why someone wouldn’t think that any of this matters and; if you’re lucky; it won’t matter all, but for the rest of us unlucky sob’s (and the people who don’t want to put their faith in luck), linux phones matter.
I use GraphineOS, it already does that but more secure and with apps
I also run GrapheneOS, but I’d love to have a decent true Linux alternative that wasn’t tied to Pixel phones. Maybe I can even get my headphone jack back.
i was going to do this too, but none of my functioning androids are supported and i expect google to take another step in disabling alternatives.
Who wants to run scaled down desktop apps on their phone
I believe the UI of most apps could be made to work well with phone display sizes and resolutions.
and who wants a terminal on a phone either?
Well, I do! It’s great when you want to connect, do or automate something there isn’t an app for. For now I sometimes run Termux on Android. Among smartphone users in general I’m probably an edge case, but among Linux users, I must say, using a terminal on the phone doesn’t seem that crazy to me.
It doesn’t matter if they look ok (they still look out of place and feel wrong), the fact is they’re built with keyboards in mind. Hell even on phosh you’ll see keyboard shortcut indicators.
What stops anyone from making new GUIs, maybe even a new framework for doing that, optimised for touchscreens rather than keyboard and mouse?
Maybe I’m just unknowledgeable, but to me that idea doesn’t sound very far-fetched.
Because people keep defending the keyboard and mouse based mobile interfaces and as long as people and devs say its ok there will be no incentive to make proper mobile interfaces.
They’re actively trying to solve:
- e-waste and making devices last longer (contributing upstream)
- escaping data harvesting and surveillance
- offer an alternative to the mobile duopoly
I’m baffled that they even bother, given how much people complain about it not being good enough. But I’m glad they do, and I think it’s awesome.
Because they’ve yet to implement basic security features android had a decade ago and the interfaces are clunky, also once again who thought putting desktop apps on Mobile is a good idea?
They’re not a multi-billion dollar company. If you don’t like it, then don’t use it. That’s your choice.
But please stop talking nonsense about them not addressing real problems. Because they are. And they deserve credit for that. Not whining about the imperfections of a work in progress.
You dont have to be a multi billion dollar company to implement security features that exist in aosp, open source features based on freely available software that simply isnt implemented.
Would “containerizing” GMS in Android ever be possible? Like it’s running in a docker instance, almost.
Graphene OS does something similar. It sandboxes GMS like any other app
Then why don’t GMS apps work?
GMS apps work fine. The only ones that don’t work are ones that act invasively enough to notice they are sandboxed and disable themselves.
Mostly bank apps. Which is irritating, since they all have mobile friendly websites that work fine without needing to know my location and everything else about my phone.
What I was envisioning was a more “open” sandbox that feels like an entire (but barebones) phone, an imprecise location, things like that. But with the rest of the phone secretly shut out.
Keep in mind GMS does not need to run as a system app. On GrapheneOS is does not.
At least for me only about 15% of my apps need GMS and I only run GMS in my private space which most of the time I lock.
So yes I do not like needing GMS but it is not so doom and gloom.
Linux phones won’t go anywhere, so you should probably donate to GrapheneOS and hope they have enough in the bank to fork android by the time it’s completely discontinued.
I’m not sure what the point of the post is? Is it to share frustration? Searching for a solution? Sorry, I may be not good at inferring this, but I don’t get it.
IF you are in solution-finding mode, then there are a few things that you can do.
- You can use those banks that work without google. I’ve found 2 in the Netherlands, for example. One of them stopped working a while ago, I’ve wrote about that to their support and had to discontinue, withdrawing all my funds using a Dutch procedure for full withdrawal from a bank. After half a year or so I’ve noticed they’ve fixed it and work without google again. I’ve returned as well (it’s convenient for me to have 2 banks). I’m sure as hell banks watch for their usage statistics and wouldn’t like seeing people leave their bank if it can be fixed with a simple reversal of whatever the dev team did lately.
- You could try Linux phones such as PinePhone to see which use cases can it already cover. 30%? 70%? 90%? You’ll know what to even wait for in the Linux landscape to be able to switch. You’ll get a bit of power or mental control if you acquire this knowledge.
- Funnily, you can expect some good news coming from all those fights between US and China, because that makes a LOT of devices ship without google services. And some people in your county (I assume it’s not China, otherwise you wouldn’t have these problems) may have phones bought there, so you won’t be alone when pushing for such changes.
Can you elaborate which banks those were? Or you if there is a curated list of banks that work on custom ROMs?
Dutch banks working without google are: BUNQ and ASN Bank (EDIT: and Triodos).
BUNQ has the built-in QR scanning functionality broken (the one for iDEAL, if you’re living in NL you know), but that’s acceptable because it works to scan the QR in Binary Eye, which in turn opens the bunq app and the payment can be made easily.
ASN just works, all features that I’ve tried I think. (This one is only in Dutch though.)
Banks that I’ve tried few years ago and they didn’t work: ING, ABN AMRO, Rabonbank, Tridos, possibly few others that I forgot.
Also, lately I’ve started using some of those “international” ones, not so focused on NL. I’ve found that Wise (pure web, haven’t even tried their app) and Revolut (app) seem to work well on my de-googlified phone. Hope that helps!
EDIT: re-worded the first line of my message to be indexable by search engines, because that may be useful for future readers.
Hi, I can add that Triodos works like a charm for me on a completely ungoogled /e/os And shoutout to @vas for actually telling banks and presumably other institutions that they need to be platform neutral or lose their custom. That’s my preferred way out of this mess. Goog luck ungoogling, everyone
Good to know! I was really eyeing Triodos back in the day, due to what looked like a good ethical stance, but it didn’t work out at the time. Nice that they’ve fixed it! (I’ve updated my message above as well to include the bank.)
Thanks! I’m on ING now and every time i look it up for ING i get conflicting answers, Probably because it differs for each country they operate in (and people don’t always specify). I’ll look into the other ones.
(And noteworthy that ING has a million of different apps)
I’ve re-tried ING now, the app starts fine and the first steps to create an account are fine (I went up to the phone number and email). However, IIRC they used to break on further steps such as ABN AMRO breaking when wanting to scan my ID card for verification. But then again, you may not need it if you already passed that verification. Anyway, just letting you know if you’re curios; I’m aborting here.
Thanks for the useful feedback.
Wise requires me to use the app as 2FA in order to log into their web interface. How do you log in without the app?
You can use andOTP if you want a FOSS app on Android. If you’re a hardcore no-Android-at-all user (or considering), you can use KeePassXC on the desktop. This kind of defeats the purpose of 2FA, but on the other hand people with KeePassXC tend to have strong passwords due to ease of their maintenance, so you don’t need 2FA as much to begin with.
TL&DR; use andOTP on Android or KeePassXC on Linux Desktop.
