this is so ambiguous, because it’s making fun of the far right, because Donald Trump was accused of getting help from “Russians” when the libs decided to start a new Cold War. but also is attacking the far left, which is against imperial overreach and proxy wars against Russia.
the independent thinker is just someone who thinks hating Russia is dumb and goes out of their way to understand a “taboo” nation the West wants to destroy. On the right these people flock to Trump, Tucker Carlson, and Steve Bannon’s camp. on the left they’re actually independent and lack a political movement. they listen to podcasts like Chapo Trap House and maybe are involved with the DSA.
Putin claimed that Ukraine had been committing genocide against Russian speakers in the region; that Ukraine’s government were neo-Nazis under Western control; that Ukraine was developing nuclear weapons; and that NATO was building up military infrastructure in Ukraine, threatening Russia.
Putin said that Russia was acting in self-defense, that its goal was the “demilitarization and denazification” of Ukraine, and claimed that Russia had no plans to occupy Ukrainian land. He threatened severe consequences for any country that intervened.
In this case, “propaganda” is a matter of emphasis. I think that there is a very strong case to be made that the USA supported pro EU/pro NATO forces in Ukraine, with weapons, services, and goods, during and after Maidan. This aid influenced Ukraine to join NATO which was a hard red line for Russia. There is a strong case, and historic precedence to be made that the USA pushed, or at least nudged (using aid, which made up 90% of foreign aid) Ukraine to join NATO specifically to draw Russia into a long, protracted conflict with Ukraine.
NATO is an entity that was formed to stop Soviet “spread” into Europe. So.why does it still exist after the fall of USSR? It still functions as a hostile military front against Russia. It makes sense in any context that Russia would not permit a new NATO installation in Ukraine.
Does this justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Fuck no. But that doesnt mean that being objective about the history is propaganda, it means the lead up to the invasion was messy, there were western and Russian elements using Ukraine to carry out their own imperial agenda. Ukraine has been incredibly vulnerable and heavily exploited for a very long time. Ukraine had the lowest standard of living during the USSR, which dropped significantly after the fall, and basically never recovered. Post USSR Russia played a role in this, as did the USA, EU, and NATO.
Propaganda does not mean “facts that don’t suit my camp”. Such facts may be used in propaganda, but doesn’t make them false, context is everything. Being a pro-USA campist is also bad. Even if it puts you on the “side” of the victims in the invasion doesn’t give you the right to disregard the USA’s role in using Ukraine for their own imperialist aganda.
Maybe they should stop having Nazi symbolism keep showing up in photographs and stop constantly celebrating the Nazi collaborationist UPA then the accusations will have no weight.
I think it is highly debateable that having Nazis in a country is justification to invade them, because that’s a justification for practically any country to invade practically any country. Especially when the Invading country is also full of neo-nazis.
I don’t support the invasion for what it’s worth. But it would be good if they carried out denazification with the same enthusiasm as they carry out decommunization. Soldiers wearing patches with swastikas, wolfsangels, SS runes and so on should face prosecution. So should showing support for the organisation which slaughtered Poles by the thousands between 1943-1945 with the explicit approval of Nazi Germany.
These things are ignored at best and encouraged at worst. I think Ukraine and Russia both have a Nazi problem. Neither government seems to care as long as it’s more bodies for the frontline.
Just isn’t really possible for a capitalist country to denazify another capitalist country. Fascism is capitalism in decay. As long as the conditions for fascism exist, it will continue and reemerge as a social phenomenon.
The state targeting individual fascists, without delegitimizing them, just creates more fascists. And the only thing that can delegitimize fascism is a social system that can take care of people’s needs, end wars, resist capitalism, provide a high quality of life (or realistically promise one), and carry out mass education that teaches people to be critical and engaged.
As long as the capitalists are with us, there will be poverty, and fascists to make sure things remain that way.
A fringe party with less than 1% popular support (could not find the actual number, IIRC about 12k votes total) tied to a far right paramilitary group of few hundred people does not mean a country is Nazi. Its as stupid as idk, like saying China is Nazi because of Kuomintang.
Or alternatively, if fringe support is enough to make Ukrainie a Nazi hotspot, then USA is Nazi Grand Poobah.
The government won’t do anything about it though. Nazi symbols should be a criminal offence to wear. And UPA members get streets, stadiums, and postage stamps named after them. An example being Roman Shukhevych who joined a Nazi battalion and helped the Germans murder Jews. This is not fringe stuff. It is grotesque that Ukraine tolerates this kind of thing.
Yeah, just trying to understand. You are literally the one pictured in the meme. You’ve spouted enough Russian disinfo that I already tagged you for it months ago.
this is so ambiguous, because it’s making fun of the far right, because Donald Trump was accused of getting help from “Russians” when the libs decided to start a new Cold War. but also is attacking the far left, which is against imperial overreach and proxy wars against Russia.
the independent thinker is just someone who thinks hating Russia is dumb and goes out of their way to understand a “taboo” nation the West wants to destroy. On the right these people flock to Trump, Tucker Carlson, and Steve Bannon’s camp. on the left they’re actually independent and lack a political movement. they listen to podcasts like Chapo Trap House and maybe are involved with the DSA.
The far left is against imperialism full stop, that includes Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
What does imperialism mean to you?
It’s when a ruler is in a military dress uniform with a tall, feathery, hat.
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Literal Russian propaganda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin_speech_on_invading_Ukraine
In this case, “propaganda” is a matter of emphasis. I think that there is a very strong case to be made that the USA supported pro EU/pro NATO forces in Ukraine, with weapons, services, and goods, during and after Maidan. This aid influenced Ukraine to join NATO which was a hard red line for Russia. There is a strong case, and historic precedence to be made that the USA pushed, or at least nudged (using aid, which made up 90% of foreign aid) Ukraine to join NATO specifically to draw Russia into a long, protracted conflict with Ukraine.
NATO is an entity that was formed to stop Soviet “spread” into Europe. So.why does it still exist after the fall of USSR? It still functions as a hostile military front against Russia. It makes sense in any context that Russia would not permit a new NATO installation in Ukraine.
Does this justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Fuck no. But that doesnt mean that being objective about the history is propaganda, it means the lead up to the invasion was messy, there were western and Russian elements using Ukraine to carry out their own imperial agenda. Ukraine has been incredibly vulnerable and heavily exploited for a very long time. Ukraine had the lowest standard of living during the USSR, which dropped significantly after the fall, and basically never recovered. Post USSR Russia played a role in this, as did the USA, EU, and NATO.
Propaganda does not mean “facts that don’t suit my camp”. Such facts may be used in propaganda, but doesn’t make them false, context is everything. Being a pro-USA campist is also bad. Even if it puts you on the “side” of the victims in the invasion doesn’t give you the right to disregard the USA’s role in using Ukraine for their own imperialist aganda.
Edit: gonna post some links for reference https://thewallwillfall.org/2022/04/17/retired-swiss-intelligence-officer-explains-ukraine/
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/18/788874844/how-u-s-military-aid-has-helped-ukraine-since-2014
https://www.stimson.org/2022/u-s-security-assistance-to-ukraine-breaks-all-precedents/
https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea?s=08
Maybe they should stop having Nazi symbolism keep showing up in photographs and stop constantly celebrating the Nazi collaborationist UPA then the accusations will have no weight.
I think it is highly debateable that having Nazis in a country is justification to invade them, because that’s a justification for practically any country to invade practically any country. Especially when the Invading country is also full of neo-nazis.
I don’t support the invasion for what it’s worth. But it would be good if they carried out denazification with the same enthusiasm as they carry out decommunization. Soldiers wearing patches with swastikas, wolfsangels, SS runes and so on should face prosecution. So should showing support for the organisation which slaughtered Poles by the thousands between 1943-1945 with the explicit approval of Nazi Germany.
These things are ignored at best and encouraged at worst. I think Ukraine and Russia both have a Nazi problem. Neither government seems to care as long as it’s more bodies for the frontline.
Just isn’t really possible for a capitalist country to denazify another capitalist country. Fascism is capitalism in decay. As long as the conditions for fascism exist, it will continue and reemerge as a social phenomenon.
The state targeting individual fascists, without delegitimizing them, just creates more fascists. And the only thing that can delegitimize fascism is a social system that can take care of people’s needs, end wars, resist capitalism, provide a high quality of life (or realistically promise one), and carry out mass education that teaches people to be critical and engaged.
As long as the capitalists are with us, there will be poverty, and fascists to make sure things remain that way.
A fringe party with less than 1% popular support (could not find the actual number, IIRC about 12k votes total) tied to a far right paramilitary group of few hundred people does not mean a country is Nazi. Its as stupid as idk, like saying China is Nazi because of Kuomintang.
Or alternatively, if fringe support is enough to make Ukrainie a Nazi hotspot, then USA is Nazi Grand Poobah.
Dealers choice.
The government won’t do anything about it though. Nazi symbols should be a criminal offence to wear. And UPA members get streets, stadiums, and postage stamps named after them. An example being Roman Shukhevych who joined a Nazi battalion and helped the Germans murder Jews. This is not fringe stuff. It is grotesque that Ukraine tolerates this kind of thing.
These days, not far from the truth.
Holy fucking victim blaming, batman.
“Ukraine deserved it” is surely one of the takes of all time.
Glad to know you can be ignored
Yeah, just trying to understand. You are literally the one pictured in the meme. You’ve spouted enough Russian disinfo that I already tagged you for it months ago.
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