• Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      11 hours ago

      The Russian Civil War was extremely messy. For a time, in 1919, Makhno joined an alliance with the Whites against the Red Army, though eventually turned back to allying with the Red Army. The Anarchism of Nestor Makhno talks about this flip flopping, describing Makhno as reluctant in the alliance against the Red Army but nonetheless participating in bandit raids for supplies.

      • therealdries@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        11 hours ago

        For a time, in 1919, Makhno joined an alliance with the Whites against the Red Army,

        Tankie thumbsucking doesn’t qualify as proof.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              10 hours ago

              Here:

              At the end of 1919 the Ukrainian Army was forced by the superior Bolshevik and anti-Bolshevik Russian forces to retreat westward where it encountered the Polish Army. Petliura decided it was impossible under these circumstances to continue orthodox warfare without external aid. He felt, however, that the struggle against the invading Russian forces should continue in the form of guerrilla warfare. Part of the army, about fourteen thousand men, was reorganized and, on December 7, 1919, under General Mykhailo Omelianovych-Pavlenko, moved far to the rear of the Bolshevik and Denikin forces to fight them and to support the Ukrainian partisans. This “Winter Campaign” continued through the winter of 1919–20.[15]

              Petliura realized that Ukraine could not survive in her struggle against the Russian Reds and Whites without assistance from the Entente. Therefore, he tried to come to terms with the Polish government, which, in his judgment, was the bridge to the Entente. At first reluctant, Poland came awake when the erosion of the Ukrainian position threatened to remove the barrier that had protected Poland from the Bolshevik threat since Germany’s defeat. Thus, once the Polish Army attained the desired frontiers, the Zbruch River and western Volyn up to the Styr River, at the expense of Ukraine, the Poles agreed to negotiate. The Directory was obliged to issue a declaration on December 2, 1919, without the consent of its Galician members, accepting this line as the Polish-Ukrainian frontier.

              After prolonged negotiations the two governments concluded a treaty, consisting of a political agreement and a military convention. Both governments expressed their profound conviction “that each people possesses the natural right to self-determination and to define its relations with neighboring peoples, and is equally desirous of establishing a basis for concordant and friendly coexistence for the welfare and development of both peoples.”[16] Although the treaty had many weaknesses and was sharply criticized by many on both sides, and in addition it did not achieve the Directory’s hope of winning French or British support, both the Polish and Ukrainian armies, including the participants in the winter campaign, joined in fighting the Red Army. On May 8, 1920, they liberated Kyiv. The Bolshevik counteroffensive, however, forced them to retreat deep into Poland where the Bolsheviks were finally defeated. The Soviet Russian government proposed an armistice and a preliminary peace that the Polish government accepted without consulting the Ukrainian government.

              This is from an explicitly pro-anarchist, pro-Makhno source, so this isn’t really controversial. The justification tends to be that Makhnovschina was playing both sides, in order to best secure its position in a chaotic landscape. I didn’t dare being a pro-soviet source as it becomes even more damning, but at the same time would be less likely to be taken seriously.

              The Makhnovists didn’t hide their animosity towards the Bolsheviks either, so this shouldn’t be surprising that they would fight:

              Military hostilities between the Makhnovist revolutionary insurgents and the Red Army have ceased. Misunderstandings, vagueness and inaccuracies have grown up around this truce: it is said that Makhno has repented of his anti-Bolshevik acts, that he has recognized the soviet authorities, etc. How are we to understand, what construction are we to place upon this peace agreement?

              What is very clear already is that no intercourse of ideas, and no collaboration with the soviet authorities and no formal recognition of these has been or can be possible. We have always been irreconcilable enemies, at the level of ideas, of the party of the Bolshevik-communists.

              We have never acknowledged any authorities and in the present instance we cannot acknowledge the soviet authorities. So again we remind and yet again we emphasize that, whether deliberately or through misapprehension, there must be no confusion of military intercourse in the wake of the danger threatening the revolution with any crossing-over, ‘fusion’ or recognition of the soviet authorities, which cannot have been and cannot ever be the case.

              [Source: Nestor Makhno: Anarchy’s Cossack by Skirda and Sharkey, pp. 200-201]

              The Russian Civil War created strange bedfellows. The idea that Makhnovschina tried to play both sides for its own interests is an extremely charitable reading of how they participated in the civil war. If the Red Army was truly the threat to Makhnovschina the Makhnovists said it was, then it makes perfect sense why they would temporarily form alliances against the Red Army if only to try to stay afloat themselves. And, for what it’s worth, they sided with the Red Army for the majority of the war.

              Not everything is an evil communist conspiracy, sometimes Civil Wars are messy and result in strange bedfellows.

              • therealdries@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                10 hours ago

                After prolonged negotiations the two governments concluded a treaty, consisting of a political agreement and a military convention.

                Is that what you are trying to pass off as an “alliance” between Makhno and the Whites? Negotiations between Petliura and Poland?

                You do understand that Petliura was not a Makhnovist, right?

                The Makhnovists didn’t hide their animosity towards the Bolsheviks either,

                Gee… I wonder why.

                If the Red Army was truly the threat to Makhnovschina the Makhnovists said it was,

                Yeah… the genocidal campaign the Bolsheviks launched against Ukraine must have been just an oopsie, right? Just like the US blundering into Vietnam, right?

                they would temporarily form alliances against the Red Arm

                Again… you have provided ZERO evidence of any Makhnovist “alliance” against the Bolsheviks.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  10 hours ago

                  It’s pretty cut and dry that the Makhnovists worked with other groups against the Red Army at certain times, as I showed. “Alliance” doesn’t mean that the Makhnovists were hardcore Whites or anything, just that, like all factions, they were opportunistic and dealing with an intense crisis. Also, there was never a “genocidal campaign against Ukraine,” so I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. The Makhnovists opposed the Marxist formations propped up by the soviets, and tried to build an entirely different structure in Ukraine, which ultimately failed. There were ideological differences between the two groups that could not be reconciled, even if they could temporarily ally, just as they did with other factions during the civil war.

                  • therealdries@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    1 hour ago

                    Do I need to remind you off your own claim? Here it is…

                    For a time, in 1919, Makhno joined an alliance with the Whites against the Red Army,

                    You have provided no evidence that such an alliance ever existed. And now…

                    It’s pretty cut and dry that the Makhnovists worked with other groups

                    …you are attempting to modify your claim after the fact.

                    This conversation goes no further until you admit to your error.

    • chaogomu@lemmy.world
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      24 hours ago

      Not banditry, armed resistance against the red totalitarians.

      He was in a bad spot from the beginning, and could never truly win. It’s sad, and Tankies and Fascists both paint the man in the worst light, because what he was trying to build was something beautiful.

      The man had to pick sides at a time when both sides were actively his enemy, proving that the enemy of my enemy is no friend at all.