Evidently, this is a divisive and emotional topic. Still, we’re happy that we are talking about it because it’s certainly important to us in the community. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be so heated about it. At the same time, we’d like to keep the discussion respectful. It’s completely fine to express your opinions as long as they aren’t explicitly violating any of the rules, especially promoting hate. It’s respectful and effective to disagree with someone over a passionate topic without calling them offensive names. There is no need to personally attack anyone or a group, and we do not want to maintain a space that is used for creating hateful division.
Remember, we’re here to discuss all matters related to autism, have a place where we can freely be autistic without having to mask, and ultimately create a community. It’s understandable to get heated over topics, but try to remember that you’re responding to another person that may feel emotional about the matter as well.
In other words, please practice human decency.
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That discomfort, I believe, is the point. Flipping the labeling game on its head is supposed to make you feel uncomfortable with the label. That can be used later for empathy.
And labeling it a persecution fetish is projecting. And saying that the mainstream doesn’t accept it so we shouldn’t either is provocative in a post that says “don’t let mainstream lead you by the nose”.
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supposed to make you feel uncomfortable with the label. That can be used later for empathy.
That sounds manipulative and dishonest. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding. Might you explain how that works, from either an individual or societal perspective?
I agree we desperately need more awareness and empathy, but I don’t see how adding more synonyms that feel exclusionary helps.
Yeah, this is the same approach that labelling majority as CIS-gender is. Sure, smart and empathetic people realize and recognize what it’s trying to highlight, but others will find it offensive and irritating before, if at all, coming to a conclusion.
The problem with this psychological approach is that it’s projecting to bring down others / the out group, instead of attempting to elevate the disadvantaged straight. It creates a faux us vs them tribalism where there was none before.
Does ‘straight’ (or heterosexual) fall in the same category?
It may have before. I wouldn’t know, because when those terms came to be used were before my time.
How alone am I in disliking the word “allistic”?
I don’t care for it, either. Nor do I particularly care for “autistic”. Mainly because when I was growing up, if you were autistic enough to get diagnosed you were autistic enough to get institutionalized. My kind of autism used to be called “Asperger’s syndrome” until the DSM-V dropped, and good riddance because Hans Asperger was a fucking Nazi. If I really need a label, “weird” or even “eccentric” will do.
“Neurotypical” is the more appropriate word anyway
not really. Allistic is the opposite to autistic while NT is the opposite to ND. As Neurodiversity covers (much) more than just autism, allistic is more precise when the topic is specifically autism.
Yeah I agree with that. I will, however, point out that it means basically the same thing as the word normal. Context does matter as much as being understood as meaning non-autistic.
The whole of human experience is a spectrum, anyhow. Neurotypical just means this small peak of the bell curve society deems ‘normal’, but even then, lots of people in that group wouldn’t be considered ‘normal’ if they were honest with themselves.
Those terms do help people outside that definition, though, because they help identify and contextualise the friction they feel in society, and defining is a crucial first step towards understanding, acceptance, and learning how to overcome obstacles.
These words aren’t really for the benefit of neurotypical people, so they can seem unnecessary. They’re *often not, though.
(I’d never heard the word in the OP, and I agree it’s superfluous. We already have several words for it.)
e: added a word
Not to mention it’s pretty similar to autistic. Infact I first read it as autistic and got pretty confused reading the post.
I feel like it can be over used, but generally I like it, it fills a lexical niche for me. I could use non autistic, but that feels clunky. Sometimes it’s useful to talk about non autistic people’s experiences in relation to autistic people, and sometimes I want to talk about autistic experiences in relation to allistic experiences, so I may prefer a term like allistic.
A thing that feels similar to me is the word allosexual, which means not asexual. I guess I would identify as being on the ace spectrum, but not ace (I’m demisexual), so allosexual is often a useful word
Neurotypical is the word most people use instead of non-autistic.
Which is also dumb, assuming there is a “typical” brain.
Although true, neurotypical more means close to average. Don’t think of typical as a single thing, but more an average of collective experiences.
Confirmed, neurotypical people are totally mental too.
Normal is fine. I’ll keep saying normal. I’m not normal, and I’m well aware of that.
Which foot is the shoe on again?
I wear shoes on both of my feet.
Stop saying allistic, it’s really silly.
Neurotypical is honestly a better word
Neurotypical means they have 0 mental conditions/disorders, allistic just means not autistic
Wouldn’t it be aautistic or non-autistic anyway?
Maybe anautistic because autistic starts with a vowel. Or using the same logic with abnormal, we could say abautistic.
Honestly can’t hear that word without picturing an extremely insufferable loser. Probably because many insufferable autistic losers use it like it’s an insult to non-autistic people. They actually think barely being able to function in society makes them better.
100% it’s just an attempt to pathologize being “normal”, the same way some people use “neurodivergent” to mean that suffering from autism, ADHD, or other whatever is just a difference of opinion rather than a life-altering condition.
Talk about projection, holy shit.
Normies.
Typical allist.
aka typical neurotypical lol
imagine an atypical neurotypical
Allistic and neueotypical don’t mean the same. You can be allistic and still be neurodivergent.
I agree. My comment was more a humorous play with words trying to be paradoxical.
Also who the fuck is calling autistic people too sensitive? This image is like victim fetishizing.
I don’t know about all autistic people, but over 75% of the people I’ve had a considerable relationship with have called me too sensitive at some point. It’s one of the hallmarks of being me: waiting for the moment someone calls me too sensitive. The other is being called an asshole because I apparently made some implication I was completely unaware of.
Same. This is exactly what happens to me. Along with letting someone know at the beginning of a friendship that “hey sometimes people perceive me as an asshole or overly sensitive” and getting “oh I don’t think you seem like that at all” only for them to tell me I’m an asshole or sensitive months later… and I don’t feel like I’ve changed how I act at all in that time
First time ive heard it. I genuinely dont mind it. Its a bit odd but its fun.
Is it pronounced or-listic or al-istic?
I imagine that depends on your accent.
So if that’s a thing, do neurotypicals have allism?
you’re entirely right. allistic is silly. i think it’s slightly worse than silly though. i have two takes on this.
my first take is that you shouldn’t slur people.
my second is that if you’re gonna slur someone anyway, don’t be a chicken; just slur them. hiding behind “allistic” is a little bit like hiding behind “youths”, or “fruity”, or “welfare scroungers”, or “special”, or when people do that thing where they go “…she… oh sorry i mean he” (and vice-versa). it’s either a dogwhistle, or dogwhislte-adjacent. we all know what the speaker is implying when they uses these terms. you’re just slurring someone without the confidence necessary to do so.
this is why i unironically use normie (on the internet). sometimes i want to be rude about it, y’know? am in the wrong to slur like this? yes, absolutely. whilst i might use normie in the context of venting, it still doesn’t make it right. but at least i’m not being a coward about my position by hiding behind “allistic”
sometimes, especially when i’m chatting amongst autistics, it’s easier to casually write “when normies do x it upsets me, how about you?” instead of writing formal prose like “Oh I must say! These dastardly Neurotypicals have a particular behaviour pattern that troubles my mind… Do tell me how you bear the burden of such travesties.”.
doing the formal thing is tiring, and sometimes i don’t want to be the better person. 😎👍
Also how are any of these things autistic traits? I’m sitting here chewing my tongue raw for the last 5 years and haven’t gone outside since, have no interest in socialization and have misphonia yet watch asmr. I’m not autistic.
How do you know you’re not autistic vs undiagnosed vs misdiagnosed vs the definition of autistic is too vague?
Who the fuck cares? Are you really that fragile?
allistic
the what now
Non autistic people.
The term you’re looking for is “Neurotypical”
Offended by a label now are you?
Can I get a “LANGUAGE IS FLUID” from my normies?
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Neurotypicals tend to not know what that word means, either. It’s too Latinate and polysyllabic.
Basically no one knows the term allistic.
Yet I’m supposed to keep up with “yeet” and “sneed” and whatever the fuck memers have scooped out of their cranial mush-puddles this month?
Hey, dude, scrub, cool, hanging out, psyched, what’s up, puke, and scoop were all once just slang words. Yet here we are, and they are pretty commonly used today.
Sorry but a lot slang becomes general speech, so there’s no reason to resist it.
But where does it come from? Regardless, sounds funny so I’m all for it.
Auto/allo come from the ancient Greek words for self/other. It’s one of those pairs like cis/trans, hypo/hyper, in/ex, etc.
I wonder if it’s alright to call myself or others “hella allistic”.
tfw you have alltism
I’m thinking of all these greentexts that talk about how OP has autism and imagining their alternative scenario where they have altism.
of course, it’s a spectrum
Some dumbass
Image Transcription: Tumblr
lifeinautismworld
“Autistic people are too sensitive.”
Meanwhile, here’s a list of things that offend allistic people.
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not making eye contact
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wanting to be left alone
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not wanting to take part in a conversation
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using the wrong tone
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showing the wrong amount of excitement
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pointing instead of using words
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not wanting to be touched
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not wanting to eat certain foods
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wearing earplugs around other people
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stimming in a way that does not affect anyone else
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not following traditions
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questioning their authority
Good human
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This kind of talk is counterproductive.
Humans are social creatures. There has almost always been some sort of social norm across all of history. Likewise, there has almost been judgement of people who break social norms.
People with Autism have, among other things, trouble following those social norms. Ultimately a lot of the things we do could be considered offensive. The important part is to increase awareness that Autism is a disability and to ask for tolerance.
Meanwhile a lot of ways that autistic people are sensitive in are pretty alien and jarring. There’s a lack of emotional regulation that often leads to disproportionate outbursts. There are sensory issues that can lead to relatively benign things causing said outbursts. There are a ton of things that are simply more disruptive than a neurotypical person getting miffed that someone doesn’t make eye contact.
The important part is to increase awareness that Autism is a disability and to ask for tolerance.
Or, you know, I can demand the reasonable accommodations that are my human right.
It seemed like that commenter was saying “ask for tolerance for disproportionate outbursts.” It seems like you’re saying others accommodating your meltdowns is a human right. Is that what you’re saying?
No, don’t be silly. But an environment where I can do my job without exceeding my sensory tolerance certainly is my human right. If it can be attained with reasonable accommodations.
That’s not my opinion. That’s the law in most of the developed world.
I’m sure that’ll go well.
The important part is to increase awareness that Autism is a disability and to ask for
toleranceunderstanding and accommodation.I try to help.
If we’re using the language of disability, ‘understanding and accommodation’ seems to afford its subjects a degree of dignity. We tend not to ask for ‘tolerance’ on behalf of the disabled, after all.
That’s fair.
Humans are social creatures.
Are we really? It seems to me like even neurotypical people tend to self-isolate in rich societies if they’re prosperous enough to get away with it.
The important part is to increase awareness that Autism is a disability and to ask for tolerance.
First, I don’t feel disabled. The world just wasn’t made for people who think like I do any more than it was made for left-handed people (of whom I’m one). But maybe I just didn’t get hit that hard with the autism stick, so with a bit of effort I can fake being neurotypical long enough to hold down an office job.
Second, aren’t you sick of asking for tolerance? I certainly am. Maybe it’s time to stop asking. Nobody took gay liberation seriously until Stonewall, remember?
Neurotypicals don’t self isolate in prosperous communities they overwhelming interact with people just only other rich people. The rich as a general rule if thumb go to extremes to avoid interacting with people of a lower socioeconomic status why do you think first class and private planes are a thing?
Yes we do. I’m doing it, many coworkers are doing it. It’s great.
why do you think first class and private planes are a thing
Conspicuous consumption: if you’ve got it, flaunt it.
If you’ve really got it, you never ever flaunt it. That’s how you lose it
Considering a shit ton of people took the pandemic as an excuse to avoid people including me is not actually that unusual. We only socialize for survival.
Meh, we have the dance club crowd and the sports fan crowd. I’m part of neither (and sports fans share too many similarities to fanatic religious militants for my tastes) but I understand them.
Introverts are underrepresented in society, but I think this is due to extroverts dominating politics and industrial upper management so polities tend to favor extroverted behaviors.
Also while extroverts enjoy social behavior, they do not enjoy toxic social interaction, as is typical in the workplace. No one wants to be micromanaged and bullied and humiliated by their bosses. I think this figures largely in the telecommuting conflict going on right now.
Well put. Ultimately this debate comes down to a desire to cover the world in leather rather then wear shoes.
Increased acceptance of autistic people almost universally a good thing (with very specific and few exceptions). The trouble is that the entire rest of the world can’t be psychologists who happen to be experts in understanding every condition.
I agree that people should educate themselves where possible. As much right as autistic adults have to be themselves, other people have the right to form opinions with regard to adherence to social norms.
I think it’s fine to acknowledge the unfortunate truth that autistic people have to live in a society designed around the needs of people who are unlike them in important ways. Saying so shouldn’t diminish their responsibility to try to function in society as best they can despite this challenge.
To an extent, it’s a matter of perspective. We can easily conceive of a society where the things that “normal” people do are considered alien and jarring. If they had to constantly suppress their fundamental nature the way autistic people do, they might not seem so natural and healthy.
I don’t think they are all the same, and not all of them cause “offence”.
“using the wrong tone” is by definition wrong, so of course it will cause confusion and irritation.
Same with pointing instead of using your words, like how the fuck am I supposed to know what you mean by pointing lol
If I’m making eye contact with you, I have no idea what you’re saying.
… Um.
Well. This post has been eye opening and maybe a little disturbing.
Anyway I work in sales and eye contact is a must. I find it really hard to pay any attention to what people are saying when I’m looking at them but I’ve practiced enough that there’s, like, a subroutine in my brain that that picks out the relevant information in a conversation while I consciously am not really engaged in a meaningful way. I’ll ask the right questions and it seems like I’m paying attention but I’m really just running on auto pilot.
I’ll finish a video conference or in person meeting thanking God for transcription software because I can’t recall a fucking thing they talked about.
I’ve realized in life that nobody cares about what’s actuallly happening. They are about what looks like it’s happening. I don’t understand it and I never will but everyone wants you to lie to them, constantly. So just give the people what they need.
Once I realized this life got a lot smoother.
Oh I’ve practiced so much, I can focus now. I have to meet a lot of “strangers” every day for my job.
Also, I got a book called “how to win friends and influence people”. I’ve been practicing all the techniques the book teaches on people and it absolutely works. I haven’t read a book since high school. It’s very well written!
Edit: the book specifically talks about sales a lot. That book is especially useful for sales.
Mind you, I hate talking to lawyers, consultants and salespeople who do that (and they’re plenty) and I’m developing aversion to meeting new ones because of it. If you ever suspect your client is autistic, consider the possibility of not actually caring about eye contact, because they’ll probably prefer that.
I check too many boxes here
That’s because most of those are super normal things that almost nobody cares about.
Same…
ah yes because my teenage neighbor is going to be very angry at me if I don’t follow traditions
Just the other day I had a teenage neighbor try to lecture me on masculinity because he didn’t approve of how long my hair was. I just said, “OK boomer,” because people have been giving long-haired men shit since the 1960s. I’ve been catching shit about it since I started wearing mine long in the 1990s after getting into heavy metal.
Do you live near the Gaza strip?
I’m offended that you think I don’t question authority.
I take the reason you say this is cause your not on the spectrum?
Most things neurodivergent are actually stuff thats normal and common. Like needing some alone time, but its the degree of intensity, persevering need for those things that make it fit outside the norm.
A fun fact, we have a lot of ties to the roots of the lgbt community. Something about not letting norms and tradition decide how you should think and act. To be different often isn’t a choice and the right for us to exist differently is a matter of survival.
Why can’t we just be ourselves, without NTs imposing judgement on us? Sometimes I feel like I’m expected to act NT, when I feel like it shouldn’t be a big deal. It’s very frustrating for me. So what if I don’t know how to add to a conversation, or if I avoid eye contact, or if I don’t like people trying to make eye contact with me for too long? Can’t I just share that I’m autistic, and be given my own autonomy? I really don’t like when NT standards are imposed on me. It makes me angry.
99% nobody is judging you.
Kinda burying the lede here. They are all different forms of “questioning their authority”
I dont agree it’s about authority at all. This entire list is about showing disrespect for someone and expecting them to be OK with it.
To allistic people, everything on this list is insulting behavior that will offend them (except not wanting to eat certain foods).
This behavior will work fine with autistic people though. But you can’t expect it to work with allistic people.
Different brains equals different expectations of what is acceptable social behavior. That’s it.
not everyone is offended by these behaviors. what’s more insulting is lumping all autistic people together, and lumping all non-autistic people together assuming that they all feel the same way. it’s THAT sort of behavior that makes people turn on the other.
I know what you mean but it’s hard to talk about these things without generalizing, since we can’t ask everyone on the planet how they feel.
It’s super easy actually! You just qualify your statements. For example:
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I don’t like how some people…
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I’ve noticed that a lot of people…
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There’s quite a few people that…
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The majority of people seem to…
This language avoid assumptions about how everyone else feels and leaves the reader an out to say to themselves, “I’m not in that group and they acknowledge that I am an exception.” It avoids the trap of over generalization and doesn’t put the reader on the defensive. Language like “all people” and “allistic people” (meaning all non-autistic people) only work to alienate. Ironically it demonstrates the same behavior they appear to be complaining about…
Ok sure, but another way would be to realize that when me or someone else says “autistic people”, we mean “my experience with autistic people”.
Since obviously I haven’t met all autistic people in the world, and obviously I don’t speak for all. I have an opinion based in my experience. In fact, everything I write is based on my personal experience.
When you write something to me here on Lemmy, I read it as “your opinion about x” without you have to tell me that in every single post. It’s a bit smarter to think about posts that way I believe.
Maybe don’t generalize a group of people without careful thought and appropriate caveats then? Seems pretty easy to me. You even admit that you are writing from personal experience, and don’t have perfect information, so why not include precise language to reflect that? Seems pretty simple and way more inclusive.
Like I said previously, using precise language simply avoids putting readers that are a part of whatever group on the automatic defensive. Why not just take the extra couple of a seconds to avoid that miscommunication? If you don’t care to do that, then that’s fine, but over generalization is going to automatically alienate some readers that you perhaps didn’t mean to offend.
Yeah I don’t want to offend anyone but at the same time, I don’t want to go through the steps you mentioned in every single post where I express an opinion.
So I think I will have to be OK with some people being offended by me not specifically explaining that I don’t speak for everyone.
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This sounds like somebody using assumptions because they can’t cope with ignorance or uncertainty.
That is literally everyone. Everyone’s brain runs on assumptions. Every model is wrong, but some are useful.
Yeah well when “respect” means “micro managing myself to glorify someone else because they demand it”, then yeah. I’m disrespectful as fuck. Anyone who demands I show my belly so they can feel like they’re in charge can kindly go fuck themselves. They’re not in charge. Nobody gets that special pampering from me.
people get right indignant when encountering someone else’s food choices.
i hear the difference between an allergy and an intolerance as if that changes the amount of suffering endured.
To allistic people, everything on this list is insulting behavior that will offend them (except not wanting to eat certain foods).
Yeah, people who are used to playing and winning dominance games tend to get upset when other people aren’t willing to play and have the temerity to show it. Tough shit. If I want somebody to dominate me, that’s my wife’s exclusive prerogative.
I don’t expect you to be OK with me refusing to knuckle under when you play dominance games with me. But your feelings are of no greater importance to me than mine are to you. You are my equal at best. Do not try my patience. It is not my greatest virtue.
I’m really struggled with figuring out how anything on that list has anything to do with “dominance”.
I just told you it’s not about dominance or authority, but sure, you probably think it is, since your response is immature and ridiculous.
I just told you it’s not about dominance or authority, but sure, you probably think it is, since your response is immature and ridiculous.
Yes, I read your opinion. I don’t agree with it, and you’ve done nothing to persuade me that I should let your opinion overrule my judgment. Dismissing my response is “immature and ridiculous” doesn’t make your case more compelling.
He’s trying to play one of those dominance or authority games.
Eh, these kind of people are always throwing tantrum no matter agreed or refused playing their dominance games, i personally try to avoid such people, filter out negativity and only keep positivity, also i relate strongly to your comment
I’ve been trying that maintain eye contact thing, how to they do that? Doesn’t’t the constant screaming in their heads hurt them?
You’ve probably heard this already but, in case you haven’t, try watching their eyebrows or right above them instead. It’s a lot less awkward for some people for reasons I don’t completely understand.
Remember to look away for a moment every ten seconds or so unless you’re trying to seduce or intimidate them! It becomes a routine after awhile. Also, humans are really weird.
Omg, never heard that before, thank you.
I do 5 on, 2 off for eye contact timing. It seems to work pretty well in terms of passing as nt and focusing on the task of timing it reduces the discomfort of eye contact in the first place for me
As an allistic person, I don’t get any screams in my head when I make eye contact and may not understand what you’re referring to. Intense awkwardness?
Prolomged eye contacts may make some allistic people feel awkward, but generally it’s a positive experience of nonverbal communication.
I think maybe they don’t have the screaming <.< NTs are weird.
not wanting to be touched
That was a big one that contributed to my divorce. Even after decades and with the person who was supposed to be my closest relationship, and even after explaining a million times that the worse my autoimmune illness got, the less I wanted to be touched, it was a massive problem.
I still don’t get it, because I’ve never once thought someone else not wanting me to touch them impacted me in any way. I also never feel the need to touch other people. I guess that’s weird.
Touch is a form of intimacy, one your partner has been severely deprived of. As a heavily tactile person, partner that doesn’t want to be touched would be a massive showstopper for me.
Sad it turned out this way, but great if you’ll find a partner that respects this boundaries more, or, better yet, doesn’t want to touch you either.
There’s a huge difference between “someone else” and your life partner.
