The USSR did very well (and wasn’t just the RSFSR, but instead a federation of socialist republics). So well, in fact, that life expectancies doubled due to the advancements in development and social safety nets in socialism:
Complaining about communist “denialism” when the original claim is just generic Red Scare fearmongering doesn’t really make sense. What are communists denying, specifically? The idea that the communists were as bad as the Nazis? Such a claim is so thoroughly ahistorical that it doesn’t take a communist to find that absurd.
Trade is not tens of thousands of years old. That is ahistorical. And my argument was not about capitalism per se, it was more about the soviet union not having been socialist and not at all having been a development towards communism because it did trade as firstly as an entity within a world market that was not at all socialist and because trade was allowed internally and not necessarily bound to labour time or necessity, among an entire multiplicity of reasons.
Let’s suppose that this interpretation of finds by contemporary archaeologists is correct. There is quite a clear distinction to be made between exchanges between otherwise isolated communities that didn’t have a burning need for trade (which they btw absolutely didn’t, there is the concept of primitive communism that is rather well established from observations of recent hunter-gatherer societies) and trade as the dominant social force.
Trade predates capitalism and has taken different forms under different modes of production. Its existence under socialism does not make a society capitalist. What defines a social system is who controls the means of production and how surplus labour is allocated.
The Soviet Union inherited a devastated, largely agrarian economy encircled by imperialist states. Socialist construction could not skip stages. Public ownership of industry, finance and land became the foundation. Market mechanisms and limited private trade operated within boundaries set by the plan, not as its driving force.
Under socialism, the law of value is not abolished by decree. It is progressively constrained through planning, price regulation, and the expansion of decommodified services. Policies like the NEP were not retreats from socialism but applications of materialist method: you transform society with the conditions you inherit, not with ideal blueprints.
To dismiss the USSR because it engaged in trade is to mistake form for content. Socialism is a transitional process, not a finished state. It shifts power from capital to labour, expands collective provision, and subordinates exchange to social need. By these measures, the Soviet project lifted hundreds of millions from illiteracy and poverty, built industrial capacity from scratch, and defended social gains against relentless external pressure.
Please refrain from arrogance when your understanding of a topic matches that of the most learned dust mite.
Trade predates capitalism and has taken different forms under different modes of production. Its existence under socialism does not make a society capitalist. What defines a social system is who controls the means of production and how surplus labour is allocated.
It makes the society very much capitalist because it doesn’t rid it of an owning class. Here the party of the USSR.
The Soviet Union inherited a devastated, largely agrarian economy encircled by imperialist states. Socialist construction could not skip stages.
The Kuomintang and certain aspects of S. Korea after WWII share a very similar backstory, did they do socialism? You would probably deny this.
Public ownership of industry, finance and land became the foundation. Market mechanisms and limited private trade operated within boundaries set by the plan, not as its driving force.
Ok, you have centralised state enterprises that did trade with entities in other countries. Ok, you have planning, we have planning in all of capitalism today, capitalism is entrenched by it. It merely exists in an anarchic state, which was also the case for the USSR and its allies, you even had conflicts spurred on by nationalistic perversion that came from the logic of capital between nations that ideologically should have been brethren. Ask yourself why China and Vietnam post-“revolution” didn’t get along for most of their shared history.
Under socialism, the law of value is not abolished by decree
It is, that is what you call a being programmatic. The early Soviet Union had programmatic characteristics which it lost due to being a rushed development just like any other area on this blue planet late to the table of capitalism.
By these measures, the Soviet project lifted hundreds of millions from illiteracy and poverty, built industrial capacity from scratch, and defended social gains against relentless external pressure.
Oh you’re a Bordigist, that explains things. Either way, socialism is a transitional status between capitalism and communism characterized by public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy and the working classes in control of the state. Between capitalism and communism, elements of each are present, and do not themselves determine the identity of the mode of production but that which is rising and thus principal.
Trade on an international level, even with capitalist countries, is not a determining factor for socialism. Trade internally, even if not entitely tied to labor or necessity, is not a determining factor for socialism. You’re throwing dialectics away entirely in favor of a metaphysical outlook on production and distribution. While we’re recommending reading, why not add Gramsci’s On Comrade Bordiga’s Sterile and Negative “Left” Criticism.
Public ownership was the principal aspect of the soviet economy. The existence of commodity production does not mean an economy is not socialist, it just means it has not completed the transition from capitalism to communism. The soviet economy was not based on commodity production and the profit motive, but a social plan and the fulfillment of need.
The post mid-1920s govt expanded the development of capital, made medium-sized business possible and killed many of the most important theorists and revolutionaries. Then there was a reaction to that mid 1950s which culminated in the USSR completely abandoning the international struggle. The period between 1945-1970 cemented freaking patriotism as a “revolutionary doctrine” and perverted the memory and meaning of revolution as a result of the development of national-capitalism, i.e. trade with other nations and a central party of bureaucrat managers subordinating the worker and ripping the effort out of their hands. The USSR became the devil child of the reformist tendency adorned with the horns of the New Deal and futurist Italy, I would go as far as to call it the wet dream of the MSPD parliamentarian.
Socialism should build communism. This however was decades-long, and in its last decades largely unmoving, social democracy.
The NEP was a strategic move to expand the level of development of the productive forces. It was still socialist, but made significant submissions to capital to do so. It also paid off tremendously, as soviet power was solidified in the 1930s. Today, the PRC takes heavy inspiration from the NEP for its own Socialist Market Economy, which is why it is surpassing the entire capitalist world today.
Khrushchev’s declaration that “class struggle is over” in the USSR was revisionist, correct, but the USSR maintained their internationalism. Support for Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Algeria, Palestine, and many more liberation movements still persisted in the USSR, including funding and arming resistance groups. The fact that the USSR post-World War II did not have any interest in open war does not mean they abandoned the internationalist struggle.
To the end, however, the USSR was still socialist. Private ownership was never the principal aspect of its economy, and the working classes were in control of the state until it was coup’d at the end. There were flaws and problems with soviet socialism, because it was real, and thus faced real problems and real struggles. The problems in the CPSU and government towards the end did not mean the USSR was no longer socialist, or that it’s destruction was inevitable; up to the very end it could have been saved from its murder at the hands of the Yeltsin faction.
Lemmy was made by communists, and this is the developer-run instance. Communists are very common here as a consequence. Generic Red Scare fearmongering about the communists being as bad as the Nazis, or even comparable at all, is so thoroughly ahistorical that it’s no wonder at all why they’d be downvoted.
Plus civilians, which don’t seem to count here
But we count it!
Here the list, if you don’t like it go talk to Canada
Why are there so many Nazi soldiers on that list?
They’re making fun of some of the most ardent civilian killers of all time.
I think it is more another case of “us vs them” tankie denialism. West is evil, no doubt, but Russia didn’t do to well either.
The USSR did very well (and wasn’t just the RSFSR, but instead a federation of socialist republics). So well, in fact, that life expectancies doubled due to the advancements in development and social safety nets in socialism:
Complaining about communist “denialism” when the original claim is just generic Red Scare fearmongering doesn’t really make sense. What are communists denying, specifically? The idea that the communists were as bad as the Nazis? Such a claim is so thoroughly ahistorical that it doesn’t take a communist to find that absurd.
Yeah let’s exchange commodities and call that socialism.
Capitalism is when trade, capitalism is actually tens of thousands of years old, I am very smart
Trade is not tens of thousands of years old. That is ahistorical. And my argument was not about capitalism per se, it was more about the soviet union not having been socialist and not at all having been a development towards communism because it did trade as firstly as an entity within a world market that was not at all socialist and because trade was allowed internally and not necessarily bound to labour time or necessity, among an entire multiplicity of reasons.
Read “Dialogue with Stalin” on Marxists.org
Trading goes back to prehistory, as as archeologists will tell you.
Let’s suppose that this interpretation of finds by contemporary archaeologists is correct. There is quite a clear distinction to be made between exchanges between otherwise isolated communities that didn’t have a burning need for trade (which they btw absolutely didn’t, there is the concept of primitive communism that is rather well established from observations of recent hunter-gatherer societies) and trade as the dominant social force.
Trade predates capitalism and has taken different forms under different modes of production. Its existence under socialism does not make a society capitalist. What defines a social system is who controls the means of production and how surplus labour is allocated.
The Soviet Union inherited a devastated, largely agrarian economy encircled by imperialist states. Socialist construction could not skip stages. Public ownership of industry, finance and land became the foundation. Market mechanisms and limited private trade operated within boundaries set by the plan, not as its driving force.
Under socialism, the law of value is not abolished by decree. It is progressively constrained through planning, price regulation, and the expansion of decommodified services. Policies like the NEP were not retreats from socialism but applications of materialist method: you transform society with the conditions you inherit, not with ideal blueprints.
To dismiss the USSR because it engaged in trade is to mistake form for content. Socialism is a transitional process, not a finished state. It shifts power from capital to labour, expands collective provision, and subordinates exchange to social need. By these measures, the Soviet project lifted hundreds of millions from illiteracy and poverty, built industrial capacity from scratch, and defended social gains against relentless external pressure.
Please refrain from arrogance when your understanding of a topic matches that of the most learned dust mite.
It makes the society very much capitalist because it doesn’t rid it of an owning class. Here the party of the USSR.
The Kuomintang and certain aspects of S. Korea after WWII share a very similar backstory, did they do socialism? You would probably deny this.
Ok, you have centralised state enterprises that did trade with entities in other countries. Ok, you have planning, we have planning in all of capitalism today, capitalism is entrenched by it. It merely exists in an anarchic state, which was also the case for the USSR and its allies, you even had conflicts spurred on by nationalistic perversion that came from the logic of capital between nations that ideologically should have been brethren. Ask yourself why China and Vietnam post-“revolution” didn’t get along for most of their shared history.
It is, that is what you call a being programmatic. The early Soviet Union had programmatic characteristics which it lost due to being a rushed development just like any other area on this blue planet late to the table of capitalism.
Literally Prussia
Oh you’re a Bordigist, that explains things. Either way, socialism is a transitional status between capitalism and communism characterized by public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy and the working classes in control of the state. Between capitalism and communism, elements of each are present, and do not themselves determine the identity of the mode of production but that which is rising and thus principal.
Trade on an international level, even with capitalist countries, is not a determining factor for socialism. Trade internally, even if not entitely tied to labor or necessity, is not a determining factor for socialism. You’re throwing dialectics away entirely in favor of a metaphysical outlook on production and distribution. While we’re recommending reading, why not add Gramsci’s On Comrade Bordiga’s Sterile and Negative “Left” Criticism.
I just find this funny. I’ll stumble upon it in the sidebar of hexbears anarchism comm once in a while, together with the other funny versions of it.
Before I answer I want to know what you mean by dialectics. That words gets thrown around harder than a dodgeball in middleschool
Public ownership was the principal aspect of the soviet economy. The existence of commodity production does not mean an economy is not socialist, it just means it has not completed the transition from capitalism to communism. The soviet economy was not based on commodity production and the profit motive, but a social plan and the fulfillment of need.
The post mid-1920s govt expanded the development of capital, made medium-sized business possible and killed many of the most important theorists and revolutionaries. Then there was a reaction to that mid 1950s which culminated in the USSR completely abandoning the international struggle. The period between 1945-1970 cemented freaking patriotism as a “revolutionary doctrine” and perverted the memory and meaning of revolution as a result of the development of national-capitalism, i.e. trade with other nations and a central party of bureaucrat managers subordinating the worker and ripping the effort out of their hands. The USSR became the devil child of the reformist tendency adorned with the horns of the New Deal and futurist Italy, I would go as far as to call it the wet dream of the MSPD parliamentarian.
Socialism should build communism. This however was decades-long, and in its last decades largely unmoving, social democracy.
The NEP was a strategic move to expand the level of development of the productive forces. It was still socialist, but made significant submissions to capital to do so. It also paid off tremendously, as soviet power was solidified in the 1930s. Today, the PRC takes heavy inspiration from the NEP for its own Socialist Market Economy, which is why it is surpassing the entire capitalist world today.
Khrushchev’s declaration that “class struggle is over” in the USSR was revisionist, correct, but the USSR maintained their internationalism. Support for Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Algeria, Palestine, and many more liberation movements still persisted in the USSR, including funding and arming resistance groups. The fact that the USSR post-World War II did not have any interest in open war does not mean they abandoned the internationalist struggle.
To the end, however, the USSR was still socialist. Private ownership was never the principal aspect of its economy, and the working classes were in control of the state until it was coup’d at the end. There were flaws and problems with soviet socialism, because it was real, and thus faced real problems and real struggles. The problems in the CPSU and government towards the end did not mean the USSR was no longer socialist, or that it’s destruction was inevitable; up to the very end it could have been saved from its murder at the hands of the Yeltsin faction.
Removed by mod
Lemmy was made by communists, and this is the developer-run instance. Communists are very common here as a consequence. Generic Red Scare fearmongering about the communists being as bad as the Nazis, or even comparable at all, is so thoroughly ahistorical that it’s no wonder at all why they’d be downvoted.
I want to make extra sure you know that Russia and the USSR are different countries.