Nope, democracy depends on the class character of the state, which is not outside of the context of the economy but deeply embedded within it. Capitalists select the parties we can vote for, their representatives, and use the state to overturn any meaningful change.
You’re overthinking this, to the point where you aren’t listening to what I’m saying again. Systems are only “good” or “bad” because of how they are being used.
You are describing how they are being used, as a way of arguing against that point. How does that make sense to you?
I’m not even disagreeing with what you’re saying. I’m just wondering how you don’t understand what I’m saying. It’s like you’re saying the words, without actually thinking about what they mean.
I’m listening to what you’re saying, I just disagree with it. I’m not overthinking it, either. “Democracy” within the confines of a system where capitalists control the economy cannot be used to overturn their rule. You cannot ask them politely to give up their power, and they hold the state as well, even if the working classes were to win electorally, as Allende did in Chile and was coup’d shortly after for it. Revolution is necessary.
Dude. What are you talking about? Do you not understand how democracies work?
If it’s a democracy…then the majority decides. If it’s what you’re describing, then it isn’t a democracy, at all.
If it isn’t a democracy, then the ruling class would always win, right? That’s what you’re saying is true? Except that it’s pretty obvious that the ruling class doesn’t always win. Don’t get me wrong…I do believe we are getting closer to not being a democracy all the time…especially now…but that’s because not enough people showed up to vote last time, and now we have an actual fascist in power.
So, which is it? Either we can win if enough of us show up to vote against their candidates…or it doesn’t matter, no matter how many of us show up. Only one answer actually applies to reality, so this shouldn’t even be an argument.
Correct, capitalist democracy is not democracy at all. Within capitalism, the ruling class either wins, or has the tools to walk back a loss, such as couping Allende in Chile after he won democratically. Both Trump and Kamala Harris are examples of genocidal imperialists, both are representatives of the ruling class, every president has been a representative of the ruling class in US history.
If enough of us voted for PSL, the state would work against that unless we overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist one. This is reality, and as long as you remain trapped within the narrow mindset of bourgeois faux-democracy as your only option, then you will never get the change we need.
You keep seeing the state as outside of society, outside of class struggle, outside of how we produce and distribute. If we understand the state as a part of society and not outside and above it, then we have to recognize the class character of the state.
Lol! Like I said…you keep saying the words without actually knowing what they mean. All you’re doing is repeating slogans verbatim, with no real comprehension. If this is what passes for Socialist thought in North America, it’s no wonder you guys are so far behind the curve. You don’t even understand the mechanisms that drive your own political reality.
Case in point…
You keep seeing the state as outside of society, outside of class struggle, outside of how we produce and distribute. If we understand the state as a part of society and not outside and above it, then we have to recognize the class character of the state.
You don’t even realize that you are projecting your own misunderstandings onto me. Good luck, friend.
Nothing I said is contradictory, nor projection. If you want to establish socialism, you cannot just vote for it, you have to overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist one. Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. have already done so in the past. Engage with what I’m saying, I repeat myself because you keep making the same mistakes and dodging the point.
I feel like this is how our conversation is going…
Me: “Look. See this hammer? I can hit a nail with it, which means I’m using it to build. Then, I can turn around and hit a person with it, which means I’m using it to cause harm. But, it’s still the same hammer. Do you understand?”
And you’ve all like: “Nope. Those are two totally different hammers. We need to destroy one, and keep the other. That’s the only way.”
It’s pretty bizarre talking to someone who can’t even grasp basic reality. Enjoy your state of confusion. Let us all know when you’ve figured out what “revolution” means. That should be equally insightful.
The simple answer is that capitalist “democracy” is “democracy” controlled by capitalists. Capitalists control production and distribution, pick what parties can run, run the mass media and bribe officials. Socialist democracy exists in the context of worker control. You view democracy as existing outside of this context, usable by anyone for any aim, which is why you’re running into the same mistake. Revolution means overthrowing the system with force, see what the bolsheviks did in Russia for an example.
I have no idea where your condescension comes from, if you can’t acknowledge the role capital plays in the state then you’ll forever be confused.
Nope, democracy depends on the class character of the state, which is not outside of the context of the economy but deeply embedded within it. Capitalists select the parties we can vote for, their representatives, and use the state to overturn any meaningful change.
You’re overthinking this, to the point where you aren’t listening to what I’m saying again. Systems are only “good” or “bad” because of how they are being used.
You are describing how they are being used, as a way of arguing against that point. How does that make sense to you?
I’m not even disagreeing with what you’re saying. I’m just wondering how you don’t understand what I’m saying. It’s like you’re saying the words, without actually thinking about what they mean.
I’m listening to what you’re saying, I just disagree with it. I’m not overthinking it, either. “Democracy” within the confines of a system where capitalists control the economy cannot be used to overturn their rule. You cannot ask them politely to give up their power, and they hold the state as well, even if the working classes were to win electorally, as Allende did in Chile and was coup’d shortly after for it. Revolution is necessary.
Dude. What are you talking about? Do you not understand how democracies work?
If it’s a democracy…then the majority decides. If it’s what you’re describing, then it isn’t a democracy, at all.
If it isn’t a democracy, then the ruling class would always win, right? That’s what you’re saying is true? Except that it’s pretty obvious that the ruling class doesn’t always win. Don’t get me wrong…I do believe we are getting closer to not being a democracy all the time…especially now…but that’s because not enough people showed up to vote last time, and now we have an actual fascist in power.
So, which is it? Either we can win if enough of us show up to vote against their candidates…or it doesn’t matter, no matter how many of us show up. Only one answer actually applies to reality, so this shouldn’t even be an argument.
Correct, capitalist democracy is not democracy at all. Within capitalism, the ruling class either wins, or has the tools to walk back a loss, such as couping Allende in Chile after he won democratically. Both Trump and Kamala Harris are examples of genocidal imperialists, both are representatives of the ruling class, every president has been a representative of the ruling class in US history.
If enough of us voted for PSL, the state would work against that unless we overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist one. This is reality, and as long as you remain trapped within the narrow mindset of bourgeois faux-democracy as your only option, then you will never get the change we need.
You keep seeing the state as outside of society, outside of class struggle, outside of how we produce and distribute. If we understand the state as a part of society and not outside and above it, then we have to recognize the class character of the state.
Lol! Like I said…you keep saying the words without actually knowing what they mean. All you’re doing is repeating slogans verbatim, with no real comprehension. If this is what passes for Socialist thought in North America, it’s no wonder you guys are so far behind the curve. You don’t even understand the mechanisms that drive your own political reality.
Case in point…
You don’t even realize that you are projecting your own misunderstandings onto me. Good luck, friend.
Nothing I said is contradictory, nor projection. If you want to establish socialism, you cannot just vote for it, you have to overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist one. Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. have already done so in the past. Engage with what I’m saying, I repeat myself because you keep making the same mistakes and dodging the point.
I feel like this is how our conversation is going…
Me: “Look. See this hammer? I can hit a nail with it, which means I’m using it to build. Then, I can turn around and hit a person with it, which means I’m using it to cause harm. But, it’s still the same hammer. Do you understand?”
And you’ve all like: “Nope. Those are two totally different hammers. We need to destroy one, and keep the other. That’s the only way.”
It’s pretty bizarre talking to someone who can’t even grasp basic reality. Enjoy your state of confusion. Let us all know when you’ve figured out what “revolution” means. That should be equally insightful.
The simple answer is that capitalist “democracy” is “democracy” controlled by capitalists. Capitalists control production and distribution, pick what parties can run, run the mass media and bribe officials. Socialist democracy exists in the context of worker control. You view democracy as existing outside of this context, usable by anyone for any aim, which is why you’re running into the same mistake. Revolution means overthrowing the system with force, see what the bolsheviks did in Russia for an example.
I have no idea where your condescension comes from, if you can’t acknowledge the role capital plays in the state then you’ll forever be confused.
Lol
You had a genocidal fascist in power previously too