There is no moral or legal justification for what Israel is doing right now. And the Palestinian people have a legal and moral right to resist their occupation by whatever means they decide, according to the UN charter and international law. Israel has turned Gaza into an open air concentration camp. It is one of the most densely populated place on earth and half of its population are children. Israel has laid a complete siege to Gaza for 17 years, sniping civilians and paramedics from towers and bombing it every few years. It forcibly relocated people there and it controls nearly everything about Gaza, its water, food and electricity. The conditions that are there are Israel’s fault, and Israel is openly committing an ethnic cleansing with US support. Israel blames Hamas, but Israel literally funded Hamas and tried its best to dismantle every other political organization in the Palestinian resistance. A leaked cabal to the US even said that they prefer Hamas win’s so that they can level collective punishment on all of Gaza by labeling it a hostile state.
I always hear people in the US musing how they couldn’t imagine sitting idly by while the Holocaust happened in WW2, but now I hear those same people doing mental gymnastics to excuse some of the most horrible atrocities live on tv.
Biden is covering himself saying Israel should use a targeted response against Hamas and not just indiscriminate bombings of civilians, but those words probably don’t mean much to the civilians who are killed, injured, and lose loved ones to Israeli actions of war.
They mean even less when it’s just a quote and nothing something that could alter the amount of money he’s gonna blindly send to them. It’s basically just PR since there’s no real enforcement attached to it.
Any thoughts on the decades of increasing oppression the Palestinian people have suffered or are you just pretending this uprising is happening in a vacuum?
What is the permissible amount of violence with which to respond to attempted genocide?
After yet after 75 years of Palestinians being attacked and imprisoned and abused I don’t know what Hamas expected as a response to this. Less attacks and imprisonment and abuse?
Ignoring for a moment the right of an occupied people to resist their oppression: “Hamas” does not include all Palestinians or all residents of Gaza. There are innocent civilians in Gaza, and collective punishment is against international law.
But back to that right: could you please point to an example of an oppressed people successfully freeing themselves non-violently?
Not a single time in the history of anthropology has oppression been resolved “non-violently”. Oppression requires violence and force to keep it intact. Compliance is required or they will make you missing sometimes even your family to reinforce oppressed populations consequences.
Back in 2018 the world got to shake its head and move on as Palestinians marched in protest against the Israeli occupation. It was great target practice for the IDF as they got to shoot thousands of protestors, medics and journalists. Palestinians should keep doing this until the world shakes its head so hard that Israel will start feeling bad for killing people that they don’t consider people.
I think a better question is how did Israel think that 75 years of attacking and imprisoning Palestinians would lead to anything but a retaliation of violence?
Everyone knows that there has been a violent back and forth for decades. The question is who is to blame for the continuation of violence? Well, that would be those who have the ability to actually enact a solution and choose not to.
The reality is that Israel holds all the bargaining power in this scenario, they have the military, the resources, and the support of the global community. Palestinians don’t have a seat at the table, they have been given no options but apartheid or violent revolt.
You’re talking about how Isreal has spent the last 50 years doing a large scale violent apartheid on the Palestinian people right? That’s gotta be the thing you’re talking about here, because anything else would frankly be ridiculous.
I think the point that people are trying to make is that Hamas terrorism isn’t representative of all Palestinian people.
I feel as though the focus should be on eradicating and arresting the terrorist cell not bombing the entire neighborhood where they live, civilians and all. Although I understand that an investigation needs to be completed to determine which group actually carried out the hospital bombing and whether it was deliberate.
I do feel as though as a westerner without formal education or study of the matter I’m not qualified to point fingers in the whole thing other than to say that one atrocity does not justify further atrocity.
Are the Palestinian people cracking down on Hamas themselves? No, Hamas is operating as their government on the strip.
They(the larger group of people who don’t want this) could do something to change that, but they haven’t. Of course it wouldn’t be a peaceful change, but If your government doesn’t represent you, do something about it or you lose your right to complain when it ends up causing you harm. It’s not like revolutions are unheard of in history when the populace gets angry enough.
Same for Israel, the government is representing the people. The people could change the dynamic, but they choosing not to, and therefore the consequences are their own.
Life isn’t fair. War isn’t new. Humans can be very fucking brutal, vengeful, and stupid.
That’s such an overly simplistic solution for a complex issue, though.
Using that logic no despotic regime should ever be in power. But they are and have been and will continue to be.
The Taliban shouldn’t be back in power in Afghanistan, and Russia should just ditch Putin. People just need to read the 2nd amendment and grab their guns, gotcha.
It’s a long fucking list. It’s going to keep getting longer too,
Just because it can be done, doesn’t mean it happens immediately. The people have to want it, and I honestly don’t think either the Palestinians or the Israelis want to change the situation right now, they’re quite content to try to annihilate each other.
If you ask the average person there, of course they’ll say the other side shouldn’t be hurting them, but they also aren’t asking their own side to stop fighting.
Are the Palestinian people cracking down on Hamas themselves? No, Hamas is operating as their government on the strip.
Yeah… those bad Palestinians not doing anything against Hamas while they took control of Gaza… oh, wait. That’s not what actually happenend.
Was Israel cracking down on Hamas 16 years ago when there were open fights between Hamas and Palestinians fighting against them? Or were they sitting on the sideline gloating and watching Palestinians fighting other Palestinians until Hamas controlled Gaza?
Was Isreal cracking down on Hamas in Gaza in the last decade? Or were they just using Hamas as an excuse to kill civilians and to argue that the National Authority obviously doesn’t speak for all Palestinians, so there is no need to talk to them or work for peaceful solution?
Palestinians want revenge more than they want peace and so do the Israelis, nothing will change about this situation until both sides choose differently. Sucks for all the people who do want peace, but the people perpetuating this are significant groups of people, not simply fringe elements on each side.
Why should it have been Israel’s job to stop a civil war that’s happening in a non-Israeli controlled territory?
But that’s the point: It happened in Israeli-controlled territory. They did nothing for a decade after 1993 while de facto still occupying the areas with no change in sight, then wondered why the National Authority lost support in the population and then still couldn’t bring themselved to support that peaceful government cooperating with them over radicals bent on destroying Israel.
That’s the level of priority peace actually had for Israel. They created Hamas support in the first place by a decade of governing the status quo when the plan should have been to gradually work for more autonomy for Palestinians and peaceful co-existence, then they indirectly supported Hamas by using them for even more excuses to not move on with the planned peace process and now they pretend they have no other choice but killing Palestinians to root out Hamas. When in reality they had a lot of choices for 30 years. And chose the route of escalation every single time.
Israel doesn’t really claim Gaza as their own territory. Other countries say they’re responsible, but they don’t even try to operate there.
Like I said earlier, both groups are happy to keep trying to exterminate each other. Palestinians are not innocent civilians, and neither are the Israelis. They have majority support for the fighting to continue.
North Korea is a whole different problem due to the incredible level of isolation, brainwashing, and direct support from two world power dictatorships. They’re effectively a penal colony being used as a buffer to keep the West away from having a land border with China/Russia. It will fall to a revolution at some point, but it’s going to be a military coup or Chinese/Russian action, rather than from the people. If there was any ability to smuggle arms into the country, it likely would have already fallen.
Palestinians have access to anything they need to overthrow Hamas including information, communications, and weapons, there are already groups internally fighting against them. Hamas has significant (if not majority) support though, and not because Hamas has been brainwashing or forcing them.
Not kill everyone there as your method of dealing with the situation. It’s literally a hostage situation on multiple fronts and Israel is choosing to kill everyone, hostages included.
That’s only a question when you conpletely ignore history and pretend that nothing happened before. Terrorist don’t jsut pop up randomly. They are created by circumstances.
You shouldn’t ask “what’s the solution to a terrorist group embedded in a civil population”. Your actual question should be “What did we do to create that problem and how could if have been prevented?”. Even if you only ask that to not do the same shit again…
And in Israel’s case the answer is very easy. They could have worked on peace and independence of Palestinia 30 years ago, like it was planend when the National Autority was created to gradually do that. Instead they spend more than a decade on being happy with the status quo of an occupation they don’t even had to pay for as that was covered by international partners… until Hamas got a majority in 2006. Then they could have supported the peaceful government in their fight against Hamas ~15 years ago. Instead they watched cheering for Palestinians fighting other Palestinians… until Hamas controlled Gaza. And then they could have still spend more than a decade of limiting Hamas’ influence. Instead it was Israel’s government that used Hamas as an excuse to to show the National Authority wasn’t speaking for all Palestinians and so they wouldn’t need to work with them for any peace.
30 years of bullshit and then asking “what do we do about Hamas?” when the real question is “why did we create Hamas like it is today and why are we still continuing the exact same course?”.
Sure, but there are rules of engagement. International law does not condone indiscriminate bombings. They want to kill as many people as possible with each strike.
They want to kill children. There’s really no other conclusion when you look at the numbers.
Co-morbidities - I’m trying to figure out if it’s a coincidence that so many Israel supporters turn out to be rabid white supremacists.
I’m also trying to figure out if it’s mere coincidence that the countries that are most responsible for enabling Israel also happen to be countries with deep histories of white supremacism, antisemitism and colonialism.
It’s just the first time I hear that. Now that you mention it, white supremacist subreddits like /r/europe are pro-Israel, probably only because it conveniently resonates with their anti-immigrant and anti-muslim messages.
But this conflict sparked discussion from all sides since 75 years ago, so placing most pro-Israel to the nazi bin is as correct as placing most pro-Palestine to the terrorist bin. It’s like saying the people that support Palestine do so because they’re anti-Israel.
Also, I believe western countries support Israel for many reasons, but the common people do it because of how close their values and culture are to their own. I can’t believe that it is historic white supremacism that would drive this support.
white supremacist subreddits like /r/europe are pro-Israel, probably only because it conveniently resonates with their anti-immigrant and anti-muslim messages.
The pro-Israeli stance of a Europe that is as antisemitic as it always has been is no new thing - even the Nazis considered forcing Europe’s Jewish population to emigrate to Palestine as a potential “Final Solution” to their precious “Jewish Question” (it was dropped as a “solution” because Palestine was in British hands at the time). Christian Zionism predates Jewish Zionism - and it was always firmly based in European antisemitism… ie, the (very antisemitic) idea that Jewish people are “other” and cannot belong in “western” society. People are quick to forget - the post-WW2 era was the only time in “western” civilization’s history that overt and brutal antisemitism wasn’t the order of the day. From a historical perspective, it might even be considered an aberration for “western” society - and, considering the resurgence of of overt far-right ideology in the Global North, it may be an aberration that is coming to an end.
It’s like saying the people that support Palestine do so because they’re anti-Israel.
You cannot be pro-Palestinian and not be anti-Israel - that’s no different than saying you’re pro-black people but accept the existence of the Apartheid-regime in South Africa. To compromise is to simply excuse the continued repression of the former under the guise of “respectabity politics” - the politically correct term for “appeasement,” I’d say.
but the common people do it because of how close their values and culture are to their own.
What “values” and “culture” would that be? A belief in “western” superiority as catalyzed through genocidal settler-colonialism? White supremacism, perhaps?
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There is no moral or legal justification for what Israel is doing right now. And the Palestinian people have a legal and moral right to resist their occupation by whatever means they decide, according to the UN charter and international law. Israel has turned Gaza into an open air concentration camp. It is one of the most densely populated place on earth and half of its population are children. Israel has laid a complete siege to Gaza for 17 years, sniping civilians and paramedics from towers and bombing it every few years. It forcibly relocated people there and it controls nearly everything about Gaza, its water, food and electricity. The conditions that are there are Israel’s fault, and Israel is openly committing an ethnic cleansing with US support. Israel blames Hamas, but Israel literally funded Hamas and tried its best to dismantle every other political organization in the Palestinian resistance. A leaked cabal to the US even said that they prefer Hamas win’s so that they can level collective punishment on all of Gaza by labeling it a hostile state.
I always hear people in the US musing how they couldn’t imagine sitting idly by while the Holocaust happened in WW2, but now I hear those same people doing mental gymnastics to excuse some of the most horrible atrocities live on tv.
Biden is covering himself saying Israel should use a targeted response against Hamas and not just indiscriminate bombings of civilians, but those words probably don’t mean much to the civilians who are killed, injured, and lose loved ones to Israeli actions of war.
They mean even less when it’s just a quote and nothing something that could alter the amount of money he’s gonna blindly send to them. It’s basically just PR since there’s no real enforcement attached to it.
Any thoughts on the decades of increasing oppression the Palestinian people have suffered or are you just pretending this uprising is happening in a vacuum?
What is the permissible amount of violence with which to respond to attempted genocide?
Then don’t be?
After yet after 75 years of Palestinians being attacked and imprisoned and abused I don’t know what Hamas expected as a response to this. Less attacks and imprisonment and abuse?
Ignoring for a moment the right of an occupied people to resist their oppression: “Hamas” does not include all Palestinians or all residents of Gaza. There are innocent civilians in Gaza, and collective punishment is against international law.
But back to that right: could you please point to an example of an oppressed people successfully freeing themselves non-violently?
Not a single time in the history of anthropology has oppression been resolved “non-violently”. Oppression requires violence and force to keep it intact. Compliance is required or they will make you missing sometimes even your family to reinforce oppressed populations consequences.
Back in 2018 the world got to shake its head and move on as Palestinians marched in protest against the Israeli occupation. It was great target practice for the IDF as they got to shoot thousands of protestors, medics and journalists. Palestinians should keep doing this until the world shakes its head so hard that Israel will start feeling bad for killing people that they don’t consider people.
“Don’t fight someone trying to kill you. They might kill you faster.”
I don’t understand why your bloodthirst is so strong you feel the need to defend Israel’s genocidal actions. You can just say nothing you know?
So they should just sit tight, right? Bombs are going to come sooner or later, no matter what happens inside the strip.
I think a better question is how did Israel think that 75 years of attacking and imprisoning Palestinians would lead to anything but a retaliation of violence?
Everyone knows that there has been a violent back and forth for decades. The question is who is to blame for the continuation of violence? Well, that would be those who have the ability to actually enact a solution and choose not to.
The reality is that Israel holds all the bargaining power in this scenario, they have the military, the resources, and the support of the global community. Palestinians don’t have a seat at the table, they have been given no options but apartheid or violent revolt.
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Agreed. That’s why Israel shouldn’t be surprised that Hamas retaliated a couple of weeks ago after years of Israel’s large-scale killing sprees.
You call raping and killing civilians a retaliation? That will surely help Palestine’s cause
You’re talking about how Isreal has spent the last 50 years doing a large scale violent apartheid on the Palestinian people right? That’s gotta be the thing you’re talking about here, because anything else would frankly be ridiculous.
FTFY, apologist.
I think the point that people are trying to make is that Hamas terrorism isn’t representative of all Palestinian people.
I feel as though the focus should be on eradicating and arresting the terrorist cell not bombing the entire neighborhood where they live, civilians and all. Although I understand that an investigation needs to be completed to determine which group actually carried out the hospital bombing and whether it was deliberate.
I do feel as though as a westerner without formal education or study of the matter I’m not qualified to point fingers in the whole thing other than to say that one atrocity does not justify further atrocity.
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You say that like it actually means something…
Are the Palestinian people cracking down on Hamas themselves? No, Hamas is operating as their government on the strip.
They(the larger group of people who don’t want this) could do something to change that, but they haven’t. Of course it wouldn’t be a peaceful change, but If your government doesn’t represent you, do something about it or you lose your right to complain when it ends up causing you harm. It’s not like revolutions are unheard of in history when the populace gets angry enough.
Same for Israel, the government is representing the people. The people could change the dynamic, but they choosing not to, and therefore the consequences are their own.
Life isn’t fair. War isn’t new. Humans can be very fucking brutal, vengeful, and stupid.
That’s such an overly simplistic solution for a complex issue, though.
Using that logic no despotic regime should ever be in power. But they are and have been and will continue to be.
The Taliban shouldn’t be back in power in Afghanistan, and Russia should just ditch Putin. People just need to read the 2nd amendment and grab their guns, gotcha.
There are a lot of non-despotic regimes that exist now because of rebellions against their former despots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revolutions_and_rebellions
It’s a long fucking list. It’s going to keep getting longer too,
Just because it can be done, doesn’t mean it happens immediately. The people have to want it, and I honestly don’t think either the Palestinians or the Israelis want to change the situation right now, they’re quite content to try to annihilate each other.
If you ask the average person there, of course they’ll say the other side shouldn’t be hurting them, but they also aren’t asking their own side to stop fighting.
Yeah… those bad Palestinians not doing anything against Hamas while they took control of Gaza… oh, wait. That’s not what actually happenend.
Was Israel cracking down on Hamas 16 years ago when there were open fights between Hamas and Palestinians fighting against them? Or were they sitting on the sideline gloating and watching Palestinians fighting other Palestinians until Hamas controlled Gaza?
Was Isreal cracking down on Hamas in Gaza in the last decade? Or were they just using Hamas as an excuse to kill civilians and to argue that the National Authority obviously doesn’t speak for all Palestinians, so there is no need to talk to them or work for peaceful solution?
Why should it have been Israel’s job to stop a civil war that’s happening in a non-Israeli controlled territory?
Clearly Hamas has significant support among Palestinians.
"In the poll, 53% of the 1,200 Palestinians surveyed said they believed Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people.” https://www.npr.org/2023/10/12/1204881032/hamas-israel-attack-palestinians
Palestinians want revenge more than they want peace and so do the Israelis, nothing will change about this situation until both sides choose differently. Sucks for all the people who do want peace, but the people perpetuating this are significant groups of people, not simply fringe elements on each side.
But that’s the point: It happened in Israeli-controlled territory. They did nothing for a decade after 1993 while de facto still occupying the areas with no change in sight, then wondered why the National Authority lost support in the population and then still couldn’t bring themselved to support that peaceful government cooperating with them over radicals bent on destroying Israel.
That’s the level of priority peace actually had for Israel. They created Hamas support in the first place by a decade of governing the status quo when the plan should have been to gradually work for more autonomy for Palestinians and peaceful co-existence, then they indirectly supported Hamas by using them for even more excuses to not move on with the planned peace process and now they pretend they have no other choice but killing Palestinians to root out Hamas. When in reality they had a lot of choices for 30 years. And chose the route of escalation every single time.
Israel doesn’t really claim Gaza as their own territory. Other countries say they’re responsible, but they don’t even try to operate there.
Like I said earlier, both groups are happy to keep trying to exterminate each other. Palestinians are not innocent civilians, and neither are the Israelis. They have majority support for the fighting to continue.
@BlameThePeacock
Just curious, is this what you think about civilians in North Korea as well? That it’s their own fault?
North Korea is a whole different problem due to the incredible level of isolation, brainwashing, and direct support from two world power dictatorships. They’re effectively a penal colony being used as a buffer to keep the West away from having a land border with China/Russia. It will fall to a revolution at some point, but it’s going to be a military coup or Chinese/Russian action, rather than from the people. If there was any ability to smuggle arms into the country, it likely would have already fallen.
Palestinians have access to anything they need to overthrow Hamas including information, communications, and weapons, there are already groups internally fighting against them. Hamas has significant (if not majority) support though, and not because Hamas has been brainwashing or forcing them.
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Not kill everyone there as your method of dealing with the situation. It’s literally a hostage situation on multiple fronts and Israel is choosing to kill everyone, hostages included.
Blame ‘the west’
Okay, fumny.
But for real, what would be a solution?
That’s only a question when you conpletely ignore history and pretend that nothing happened before. Terrorist don’t jsut pop up randomly. They are created by circumstances.
You shouldn’t ask “what’s the solution to a terrorist group embedded in a civil population”. Your actual question should be “What did we do to create that problem and how could if have been prevented?”. Even if you only ask that to not do the same shit again…
And in Israel’s case the answer is very easy. They could have worked on peace and independence of Palestinia 30 years ago, like it was planend when the National Autority was created to gradually do that. Instead they spend more than a decade on being happy with the status quo of an occupation they don’t even had to pay for as that was covered by international partners… until Hamas got a majority in 2006. Then they could have supported the peaceful government in their fight against Hamas ~15 years ago. Instead they watched cheering for Palestinians fighting other Palestinians… until Hamas controlled Gaza. And then they could have still spend more than a decade of limiting Hamas’ influence. Instead it was Israel’s government that used Hamas as an excuse to to show the National Authority wasn’t speaking for all Palestinians and so they wouldn’t need to work with them for any peace.
30 years of bullshit and then asking “what do we do about Hamas?” when the real question is “why did we create Hamas like it is today and why are we still continuing the exact same course?”.
Solution? No solution, the only true focus should be blaming other people.
Sure, but there are rules of engagement. International law does not condone indiscriminate bombings. They want to kill as many people as possible with each strike.
They want to kill children. There’s really no other conclusion when you look at the numbers.
@dan1101 wait, literal babies have to expect retaliation?
Now now, we don’t use logic here. Say “Israel bad” and you’re free to go.
I’ve never met an Israel-fan who also wasn’t a rabid white supremacist - will you be breaking the mold?
What kind of generalization is that?
Co-morbidities - I’m trying to figure out if it’s a coincidence that so many Israel supporters turn out to be rabid white supremacists.
I’m also trying to figure out if it’s mere coincidence that the countries that are most responsible for enabling Israel also happen to be countries with deep histories of white supremacism, antisemitism and colonialism.
Any help would be appreciated.
It’s just the first time I hear that. Now that you mention it, white supremacist subreddits like /r/europe are pro-Israel, probably only because it conveniently resonates with their anti-immigrant and anti-muslim messages.
But this conflict sparked discussion from all sides since 75 years ago, so placing most pro-Israel to the nazi bin is as correct as placing most pro-Palestine to the terrorist bin. It’s like saying the people that support Palestine do so because they’re anti-Israel.
Also, I believe western countries support Israel for many reasons, but the common people do it because of how close their values and culture are to their own. I can’t believe that it is historic white supremacism that would drive this support.
The pro-Israeli stance of a Europe that is as antisemitic as it always has been is no new thing - even the Nazis considered forcing Europe’s Jewish population to emigrate to Palestine as a potential “Final Solution” to their precious “Jewish Question” (it was dropped as a “solution” because Palestine was in British hands at the time). Christian Zionism predates Jewish Zionism - and it was always firmly based in European antisemitism… ie, the (very antisemitic) idea that Jewish people are “other” and cannot belong in “western” society. People are quick to forget - the post-WW2 era was the only time in “western” civilization’s history that overt and brutal antisemitism wasn’t the order of the day. From a historical perspective, it might even be considered an aberration for “western” society - and, considering the resurgence of of overt far-right ideology in the Global North, it may be an aberration that is coming to an end.
You cannot be pro-Palestinian and not be anti-Israel - that’s no different than saying you’re pro-black people but accept the existence of the Apartheid-regime in South Africa. To compromise is to simply excuse the continued repression of the former under the guise of “respectabity politics” - the politically correct term for “appeasement,” I’d say.
What “values” and “culture” would that be? A belief in “western” superiority as catalyzed through genocidal settler-colonialism? White supremacism, perhaps?
I wasn’t aware that I like Israel lol
What else can you tell about me?
Why would you run interference for Israel if you didn’t?