Nobody denies that the famine happened, the idea that it was a genocide, ie intentionally directed, was fabricated, and this is abundantly clear based on historical archives.
it seems like the arguments that it was a genocide hinge on more than just the famine itself. a lot of people consider genocide to encompass more than just murdering people, but also the targeted destruction of a people’s culture.
from what i’ve read, if the famine wasn’t deliberately engineered, then it was certainly a world-class bungle, where stalin et al made consistently stupid decisions that made the situation worse. they didn’t need to enact and enforce laws preventing people from gathering leftover grain left in the fields. they didn’t need to prevent starving people from leaving their home towns in search of better conditions. they didn’t need to focus on exporting food while their own people resorted to cannibalism. they didn’t need to demand so much tribute, even going door to door taking food from people’s cupboards, and taking from the seeds set aside for next years planting.
i can totally get suspecting malice, rather than accepting that that level of incompetence was genuine. while i haven’t personally studied the subject enough to have any concrete conclusions, the genocide question seems less cut and dry than you make it out to be.
Denial of the Holodomor is the claim that a 1932–33 man-made famine that killed millions in Soviet Ukraine,[1] did not occur[2][3][4] or was exaggerated.
Emphasis mine. I deny that a man-made, intentional famine occured. I don’t deny that millions died.
What you have is a very narrow frame of view, it’s also true that the kulaks burned their grain and killed their livestock to resist collectivization, that adverse weather conditions kicked off the famine to begin with, and that the Ukrainian communist officials witheld information from the Politburo to hide how bad it was, and that Stalin immediately ordered aid to be sent upon finding out.
There was also no directed cultural erasure. There was promotion of both a soviet identity among all in the USSR, alongside national identity in each of the SFSRs and SSRs.
It’s a tragedy, one that had a combination of human error and weather disasters.
No, there is an endless supply of evidence that Joseph Stalin willingly starved millions of Ukrainians out of his extreme hatred for the White race. Furthermore, Ukraine never experienced a famine in the millennia before Stalin forced communism on everyone, and there was not a single instance of drought, plant disease or vermin activity either. All of this is well documented, universally agreed upon by good historians, and I can give you all the proof in the world. All that you have to do is solve this CAPTCHA to prove that you are not a robot:
lol i feel like i’ve been suddenly cast into an argument i didn’t realize was gonna happen, nor do i understand why i’ve been roped into it. i did not say, nor mean to imply that i thought you were denying the famine happened. you very clearly stated that you thought no one believes that it didn’t happen. i was just pointing out that in fact, some do. my first comment was in response to bubblybubbles, trying to figure out their take. you may think no one would deny that the famine happened, but it seemed like bubbles might think we’re both gullible rubes for thinking it did.
i also rather object to your ‘very narrow frame of view’ comment. that was just uncalled for. and for what? because i’m trying to learn about stuff and am willing to admit i don’t know everything?
When communists say “Holodomor is debunked,” they mean “Holodomor,” which is the idea of an intentionally genocidal famine. bubblybubbles did not say the 1930s famines were debunked, just “Holodomor.” There’s a tiny, sliver of a chance bubblybubbles doesn’t think there was any famine, but based on available context that’s extremely unlikely.
As for having a narrow frame of view, I apologize if it came across as insulting. Red Scare mythology is omnipresent in the english-speaking internet, and is still prevalent beyond it. The purpose of stating that was to try to highlight that the 1930s famine was far more complex than simply being a catastrophe of incompetence from soviet leadership alone, for example it’s also true that collectivization increased agricultural yields and mitigated the effects of famine.
I do encourage reading more about it, especially from sources after the opening of the soviet archives.
Was 3.5 million dead in the Holodomor not enough for you? Holy shit. Touch grass.
Using a famine to justify Nazi glorification?
You think that’s bad? What about the trillion killed by the communist vuvuzuela government?
Ha ha! There it is, the .world liberal screeching about the debunked HolODoMoR!!!
debunked? are you arguing that it wasn’t a genocide, or are you suggesting it straight up didn’t happen?
Nobody denies that the famine happened, the idea that it was a genocide, ie intentionally directed, was fabricated, and this is abundantly clear based on historical archives.
some do, actually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_denial
it seems like the arguments that it was a genocide hinge on more than just the famine itself. a lot of people consider genocide to encompass more than just murdering people, but also the targeted destruction of a people’s culture.
from what i’ve read, if the famine wasn’t deliberately engineered, then it was certainly a world-class bungle, where stalin et al made consistently stupid decisions that made the situation worse. they didn’t need to enact and enforce laws preventing people from gathering leftover grain left in the fields. they didn’t need to prevent starving people from leaving their home towns in search of better conditions. they didn’t need to focus on exporting food while their own people resorted to cannibalism. they didn’t need to demand so much tribute, even going door to door taking food from people’s cupboards, and taking from the seeds set aside for next years planting.
i can totally get suspecting malice, rather than accepting that that level of incompetence was genuine. while i haven’t personally studied the subject enough to have any concrete conclusions, the genocide question seems less cut and dry than you make it out to be.
Emphasis mine. I deny that a man-made, intentional famine occured. I don’t deny that millions died.
What you have is a very narrow frame of view, it’s also true that the kulaks burned their grain and killed their livestock to resist collectivization, that adverse weather conditions kicked off the famine to begin with, and that the Ukrainian communist officials witheld information from the Politburo to hide how bad it was, and that Stalin immediately ordered aid to be sent upon finding out.
There was also no directed cultural erasure. There was promotion of both a soviet identity among all in the USSR, alongside national identity in each of the SFSRs and SSRs.
It’s a tragedy, one that had a combination of human error and weather disasters.
No, there is an endless supply of evidence that Joseph Stalin willingly starved millions of Ukrainians out of his extreme hatred for the White race. Furthermore, Ukraine never experienced a famine in the millennia before Stalin forced communism on everyone, and there was not a single instance of drought, plant disease or vermin activity either. All of this is well documented, universally agreed upon by good historians, and I can give you all the proof in the world. All that you have to do is solve this CAPTCHA to prove that you are not a robot:
No! My one weaknes! 🫠
lol i feel like i’ve been suddenly cast into an argument i didn’t realize was gonna happen, nor do i understand why i’ve been roped into it. i did not say, nor mean to imply that i thought you were denying the famine happened. you very clearly stated that you thought no one believes that it didn’t happen. i was just pointing out that in fact, some do. my first comment was in response to bubblybubbles, trying to figure out their take. you may think no one would deny that the famine happened, but it seemed like bubbles might think we’re both gullible rubes for thinking it did.
i also rather object to your ‘very narrow frame of view’ comment. that was just uncalled for. and for what? because i’m trying to learn about stuff and am willing to admit i don’t know everything?
When communists say “Holodomor is debunked,” they mean “Holodomor,” which is the idea of an intentionally genocidal famine. bubblybubbles did not say the 1930s famines were debunked, just “Holodomor.” There’s a tiny, sliver of a chance bubblybubbles doesn’t think there was any famine, but based on available context that’s extremely unlikely.
As for having a narrow frame of view, I apologize if it came across as insulting. Red Scare mythology is omnipresent in the english-speaking internet, and is still prevalent beyond it. The purpose of stating that was to try to highlight that the 1930s famine was far more complex than simply being a catastrophe of incompetence from soviet leadership alone, for example it’s also true that collectivization increased agricultural yields and mitigated the effects of famine.
I do encourage reading more about it, especially from sources after the opening of the soviet archives.
Removed by mod