From the article

Microsoft has officially announced its intent to move security measures out of the kernel, following the Crowdstrike disaster a few short months ago. The removal of kernel access for security solutions would likely revolutionise running Windows games on the Steam Deck and other Linux systems.

  • HRDS_654@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    152
    ·
    2 months ago

    I’m okay with that. I don’t want some program I don’t control having access to the kernel of my system.

  • ChillPill@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    124
    ·
    2 months ago

    game developers and publishers are hesitant to enable Linux compatibility,

    And I am hesitant to spend money on their games.

    • Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      63
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      2 months ago

      running linux is a great way to automatically filter out most of the shit games, if it won’t even run in proton then you generally have to be doing some bullshit with the code and thus aren’t worth my time and certainly not my money.

        • MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          31
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          2 months ago

          VR games work just fine in proton, as long as you’re on Vive or Index.

          It’s the the headsets that don’t support linux, unfortunately.

          • ffhein@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            2 months ago

            I’ve never got my Vive to work well in Linux, even though I’m using X which supposedly still is better for gaming that Wayland.

            • MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              11
              ·
              2 months ago

              There are a lot of kinks around VR on linux. Wayland has been better in my experience, but I still can’t believe SteamVR on linux just doesn’t have power management for the base stations implemented. Like, it works, there’s a fucking python script that can do it! But not via SteamVR.

              I use an app on my phone to turn my base stations on and off.

              Here’s hoping the Deck and whatever Deckard turns out to be means Valve is in the process of improving the situation.

          • akiradavis@reddthat.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            1 month ago

            We are small but still exists…

            Once there is a way to properly play VR games without too much configuration, I will jump back to Linux. But for now, Windows 11 IOT edition is not too bad. Specifically the IOT edition without all the telemarketing and CoPilot crap.

  • Andromxda 🇺🇦🇵🇸🇹🇼@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    81
    ·
    2 months ago

    Could very well be possible. Apple did the same thing with macOS Catalina in 2019. Since then, there are no kernel extensions, meaning no third-party code running at kernel level. This greatly improves the security of macOS, and other desktop operating systems should do the same.

    • InverseParallax@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      2 months ago

      They have a hardcore micro kernel though, windows and Linux are a long way off from that Valhalla, gnu Mach notwithstanding.

  • Bookmeat@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    58
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    edit-2
    2 months ago

    It’s probably going to move to hardware attestation similar to what Android and iOS are doing. This may or may not be a good thing.

    • teawrecks@sopuli.xyz
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      33
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      2 months ago

      Yeah, idk why everyone seems to legitimately think devs are going to just quietly revert back to usermode anticheat. I could see Riot patching an actual root kit before that happens.

      But yeah, more likely MSFT will lobby for hw that is more annoying than secure boot or TPM to get working with linux, every windows app after that point will rely on it “because turnkey security!”, and if you ever manage to disable it none of those apps will work on your machine in any OS (if they even worked through proton at all).

    • phar@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      2 months ago

      Can anyone give an ELI5 on how hardware attestation works or is implemented on current OSes?

    • Andromxda 🇺🇦🇵🇸🇹🇼@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      2 months ago

      If it works on Linux, I’m fine with it, since I’m not cheating. Just like hardware attestation works on GrapheneOS, because it doesn’t decrease the security of Android, in fact, it greatly improves it.

      • Bookmeat@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        13
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        2 months ago

        It’s about control. And monopolies love control (governments, too). If we let them, they’ll take it and then we’re screwed.

        • Andromxda 🇺🇦🇵🇸🇹🇼@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          2 months ago

          Could you elaborate? I don’t really see how a hardware attestation feature would take away any of your control? Android phones have had it for a long time, and even Google still allows you to install alternative operating systems on their Pixel phones. GrapheneOS even uses the hardware attestation feature to your benefit, by including the Auditor app, which you can use to verify the integrity of your device.

      • Sanguine@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        37
        ·
        edit-2
        2 months ago

        Its so liberating to just accept this mindset everyhwhere. I personally feel so comfortable voting with my wallet I don’t even feel a sense of missing out anymore.

        • pemptago@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          15
          ·
          edit-2
          2 months ago

          💯 There’s more software, games, movies, music, people, etc than I’ll ever be able to interact with in my entire life. So much good to be found when you don’t waste time on all the extractive, disrespectful, enshittified BS. Edit: dropped word.

        • umbrella@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          2 months ago

          it helps that linux can now run almost everything else now instead of almost nothing. the main thing is we have options now.

          thank you based valve & community btw

      • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        12
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        2 months ago

        i agree and i don’t buy unless it runs on linux now… but my steam library was purchased when i was on microshit’s dicks.

        but sometimes we got to take the L and move on. I just won’t buy EA trash going forward.

      • ffhein@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        2 months ago

        Unfortunately most Battlefield games worked fine with Wine/Proton for years since EA used server side AC, so they already have our money.

        • merthyr1831@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          2 months ago

          I got battlefield 5 and explicitly rebought it for Steam to play on the Deck. Like a year later they rugpulled Linux support because 2042 has done so badly that they had to start maintaining their old games again.

  • blindbunny@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    15
    ·
    edit-2
    2 months ago

    There was news that battlefield one would stop working because they were implementing fairfight(?) but it’s still working and someone in game chat told me it wasn’t kernel level in battlefield one version of the anti cheat. Any facts to this?

    • ffhein@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      2 months ago

      I think FairFight is the old anti-cheat, which at least used to be server side only.

        • ffhein@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          2 months ago

          It did alright, don’t think I saw that many obvious cheaters in BF1. BF5 would occasionally have obvious cheaters, but I would hope they get banned eventually just because it’s over the top (shooting people through walls, infinite ammo, perfect aim). Difficult to say with more subtle cheats, but I suppose if they’re indistinguishable from players who are just good at the game then I think most people won’t ever notice.

          On the flip side I got permabanned from multiplayer in BF5 after EA falsely accused me of cheating, though I suppose that could’ve happened with any kind of anti-cheat, and could’ve been fixed by having half-competent support.

          • merthyr1831@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            2 months ago

            The problem with EA is that they never bothered to moderate their games. In the end you get spinbotters and shit whilst legit players have to deal with rootkits because they’re too stingy to pay for someone to review reports and develop moderation tools.

            the Overwatch system in Counterstrike (and a bunch of other tools and policies in tandem with VAC) have been way more effective; I was always more certain that a blatant or suspected cheated would be dealt with in CS than in battlefield.

  • _____@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    17
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    2 months ago

    As a long time cs gamer I approve of this change but I warn ye regardless that there is no alternative or viable solution to actually stop cheaters right now.

    And if you’ve only heard stories and don’t really experience cs (vac kind of does nothing)

    Ive kept track of players for months/years who have not been banned. I find it strange that they eventually do get banned several months after cheating. It took one account nearly 2 years to get banned.

    I hope that a clever solution comes out, a man can dream right ?

    • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      40
      ·
      2 months ago

      well… you see back in my day we had cool bros in “clans” running their servers mostly paying for it themselves with some donations. admins would boot bad faith actors as needed.

      then something happened to that model… and here we are now… FPS genre has no been the same IMHO

      • azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        2 months ago

        The competitive scene happened. Can’t have meaningful competitive matchmaking against the same 100 players. People don’t just want to frag noobs, they want to grind the ladder to be able to say “I’m GE and you’re Gold, therefore I know for a fact I’m better than you”.

        This is a global phenomenon. Even goddamn chess has this, first thing players ask each other nowadays is “what’s your chess.com ELO”.

        I’m not a competitive player myself but I get why people rush after ELO progression. And it’s not much of a stretch to say CS, Valo, and especially chess wouldn’t have seen such widespread success without competitive ELO-based matchmaking.

          • azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            2 months ago

            I would argue that Valorant or CS are terrible games for casual enjoyment anyways. The skill floor is already pretty damn high for a shooter.

            In the FPS genre I’ve found Battlebit has faithfully replicated the feel of BF3/BF4 for those of us who just want to run towards the objective and shoot, and it had old school community servers.

      • merthyr1831@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        2 months ago

        Self moderation has been way more effective at controlling cheaters than automated systems. Counterstrike did some good with overwatch and phone verification but I’ve always enjoyed manual server moderation if it’s maintained.

    • Julian@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      2 months ago

      Csgo and 2 have a “trust” system to keep track of player behavior and put you in games with others of similar trust value. So if you get reported often or have a history of bad behavior, you’re more likely to be put in games with other bad actors, and vice versa. Idk how effective it is though.

      Honestly there isn’t a great solution, which is kind of why I avoid competitive multiplayer games. Even kernel level anticheats can be circumvented.

      The nice thing about vac is that theres pretty much no false positives. And valve will occasionally update it, catching a ton of cheaters off guard and getting them banned.

      • Codilingus@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        2 months ago

        There’s always A.I. powered anticheat, and server side anticheat. Both work with anticheat client side that’s not kernel level.

  • Ephera@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    13
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    2 months ago

    I wouldn’t get my hopes up. Them announcing something like this looks good PR-wise, so they’ll do it, even if they don’t actually expect this effort to lead to anything.

    But even if they do implement such an API, companies won’t start adopting this API until its capabilities are roughly comparable to the kernel-level solution AND it’s available on most Windows systems in the wild. So, we’re likely talking more than a decade before this sees sufficient adoption…

    • merthyr1831@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      2 months ago

      A locked down Windows “gaming OS” is probably what Xbox wants to go towards in some respects. It gives Microsoft the walled garden that they want, can lock out Valve as much as they fancy, and will likely be paired with some new APIs to set back Proton/WINE a few years. Hell, they could even still release XBOX hardware for that niche.

      • Blxter@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        2 months ago

        I can definitely see Microsoft releasing a “gaming os” that will lock down your PC and basically make it a console in all but name. I would be surprised if it’s not in the works already for a handheld device.

  • Lung@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    2 months ago

    I think I need more info. It seems like userspace is very hackable, so thus kernel level anti-cheat was born to control stuff like synthetic inputs and manipulation of memory / frame analysis. This anti-cheat would be held together by the fact that the kernel/drivers are proprietary and not very easy to edit. Obviously still possible because it’s on your own computer, but challenging and invasive. Do I have that right?

    In which case I don’t see how going back to userspace would help. What is the solution? There probably isn’t one outside of hardware (buying a hacking chip and soldering it in is annoying for most)

    When I was doing game dev we focussed on AI-style analytics of user behavior. Of course a good enough bot could always look human. A real cat and mouse game wasting lots of time

    • superkret@feddit.org
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      16
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      2 months ago

      Does there need to be a solution?
      Do E-Sports competitions on identical certified hardware and otherwise ban people caught cheating.
      Root kits aren’t necessary for having fun in a game.

      • paraphrand@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        15
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        2 months ago

        lol, anti-cheat isn’t just about esports, or high level play. It’s not even just about cheating.

        It’s broadly about harassment and griefing and just shitty behavior mediated by hacking in online games.

    • ffhein@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      7
      ·
      2 months ago

      What is the solution?

      My guess is that Microsoft wants provide some kind of kernel level anti-cheat, possibly directly integrated with directx, and it will use cryptography which will make it impossible to emulate with Wine/Proton.

      • merthyr1831@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        2 months ago

        The same kernel software cryptography could certainly be marketed for single player games and proprietary applications as a solution to piracy.

        Don’t like kernel anti cheat in your multiplayer games? here’s kernel anticheat for your single player games!

    • ScreaminOctopus@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      2 months ago

      Removing 3rd party kernel access will probably also make cheating harder. Kernel anticheat is necessary largely in part due to cheat software using exploits in the 3rd party extension system to get kernel privileges itself and evade user mode anticheat.