Which is your preferred messaging app? I just want some insights about these two.
You may share other messaging apps too.
I use both. No, really.
If one’s intent is to connect with as many people as possible, having as many messaging/real chat apps as possible is a good idea (imo).
That’s why I have WA, DC, Stoat, Signal, Matrix and IRC.
I actually prefer XMPP. It’s also less of a hassle to set up than Matrix and the protocol is much more mature. There are still issues, but it’s rather functional for audio and video calls (if you’re using a supported client).
Edit: For clients, I use Cheogram on Android and Profanity (which is a TUI) or DinoX (for calls) on Linux.
Signal is more stable & simple to set up. So for its intended use, getting people to actually talk to me on it, it’s better.
Matrix is obviously better as a Discord replacement. It doesn’t require a phone number which is also good. Not centrally managed so easier to decouple from big tech corruption. So it is better in those ways.
I agree. Signal is easier to use and to get people switch to it since the UI/UX are vey similar to other big platforms.
I use matrix with a bunch of my friends to replace discord and and it is quite good. The main draw for me was the awesome client options like fluffy chat, commet, and sable.
Signal. Matrix was made by Israeli spyware company Amdocs and when an employee was asked about it after the split to a UK company they pretended like Amdocs wasn’t caught in multiple global spyware scandals already.
But they say Signal is centralized, and hosted in the US.
Matrix is literally an open standard, use a server and client written by people you trust, or write your own.
Signal is made by a private company and is completely closed source.
Signal is open source but it’s hosted centrally. So you’re trusting their server.
Matrix is a protocol it’s not hosted anywhere. But the primary developer and host instance now called Element.
But it being created and initially bankrolled by an Israeli spyware company known for creating backdoors, and the lead devs still refusing to acknowledge that doesn’t inspire me much more confidence.
If you want privacy SimpleX seems like better option than Matrix.
You can host a server which uses software not written by Element. Same for the client.
I don’t trust the Signal devs because I have no reason to. I don’t want to use anyone else’s servers unless I’m paying them or they’re paying me 😅
And I love swapping/trying new clients.
Signal is a centralized, US-based service which requires your phone number (thus your real identity, IE name and address), has social networking graphs of everyone you talk to, and must forward that information to the US government when asked, as well as (by law) not tell you that they’ve been asked to do so. During the Obama era, 60 NSLs were issued for this private information every single day.
People overlook its privacy concerns for the same reason they do with apple: it has a shiny interface and is easy to use, and makes people very attached to it. Behind all that, is a surveillance network that its creators have explicitly said they do not want it to be able to run in a decentralized, private manner.
It has a long history of privacy offenses below (such as refusing to publish its server’s source code for years, its reliance on other US tech services (amazon, google), US-government funding, and a US-defense-tank friendly administration) which get ignored or shouted down by many of those above. See the article below.
Pretty much any alternative is better, as long as its not hosted in a five-eyes country, and especially if it doesn’t require phone numbers or real identities like signal does.
I personally have been using SimpleX for friends and real life contacts, and Matrix for larger more anonymous group chats.
has social networking graphs of everyone you talk to
Source?
US government funding does not mean it’s immediately bad… The internet, thr flu vaccine, closed captioning, and wheather radar were all funded by the US government. A truly secure messaging encryption is beneficial to the United States, and is evem good enough for the president apparently.
Since their messages are truly secure, it wouldn’t matter where you store them. Just store them in the cheapest places possible. It being centralized makes it far more usable to the average person, making it much more likely for them to use.
Good question. I looked in the attached essay source, and he covers this there https://dessalines.github.io/essays/why_not_signal.html#social-network-graphs
This is my comment to the other person, I just don’t want to type the same ideas out a second time:
I read it. They also have no source or evidence.
Signals database, which we must assume is compromised due to its centralized and US domiciled nature, has a few important pieces of data;
You can’t simply say “we must assume” as evidence. In fact, they implemented “Sealed sender” in 2018 where they are not able to see who the message is being sent to.
They are also legally required to provide all information they have on users for warrants and subpoenas. Any time they do that, they post the (slightly redacted) document they provided to the courts. See the list here: https://signal.org/bigbrother/ This confirms they did not have any metadata on those users. The only info they have is what they openly state (phone number, date of registration, and last time a message was sent).
While there may be other US government requests they are not alllwed to disclose, they were legally required to provide the same information to the courts, and we can see what they provided.
And sure, while the US government funds Signal, you know who else endorses it? Edward fucking Snowden. If anyone knows about secure messaging, it’s the man that physically removes the microphone and camera from his phones before using them.
Read the linked doc, because it’s clear you didn’t.
I read it. They also have no source or evidence.
Signals database, which we must assume is compromised due to its centralized and US domiciled nature, has a few important pieces of data;
You can’t simply say “we must assume” as evidence. In fact, they implemented “Sealed sender” in 2018 where they are not able to see who the message is being sent to.
They are also legally required to provide all information they have on users for warrants and subpoenas. Any time they do that, they post the (slightly redacted) document they provided to the courts. See the list here: https://signal.org/bigbrother/ This confirms they did not have any metadata on those users. The only info they have is what they openly state (phone number, date of registration, and last time a message was sent).
While there may be other US government requests they are not alllwed to disclose, they were legally required to provide the same information to the courts, and we can see what they provided.
And sure, while the US government funds Signal, you know who else endorses it? Edward fucking Snowden. If anyone knows about secure messaging, it’s the man that physically removes the microphone and camera from his phones before using them.
Insightful! Thanks. I agree and I’ll give SimpleX a try as others suggested.
I feel uneasy about Signal being an app centralized in the USA, but it is the only one streamlined enough to be usable by non tech-savvy friends and family. I wonder if it will fall prey to Chat Control in Europe, so the time to explore alternatives will soon be upon us.
So far, I have heard of XMPP, Matrix, Delta chat and SimpleX. Never got friends to switch to XMPP or Matrix for more than one conversation, so I guess we’re just f*cked.
Me neither. In fact, all my friends and almost all people here are only using Messenger and Telegram.
Signal. Requires little technical knowledge, other then knowing about end to end encryption and why its important
I would like to use matrix since if anything, I think its cool. But noone I know would be remotely interested.
well what are your criteria? Asking for advice without saying what you need isn’t tremendously useful and, as has happened, mostly just results in people recommending whatever they personally use for whatever reasons.
As said in the post, I just want some insights. So any type of comment is okay.
Signal is more like WhatsApp, Element/Matrix is aiming to be more like Telegram or Discord.
From purely a user perspective, because I haven’t dug into the tech behind either, I’d probably vote Matrix. Signal is nice but personally I find matrix easier to use for group chats and bigger rooms. I only have 4-5 people on signal and it’s useful for those moments but on Matrix I can find bigger chats to join and jump in and just talk with a handful of people.
I’ve been using XMPP the past two decades. I use it because I haven’t found something that’s better.
Think its relatively new, but theres also chatto
Interesting…
So it’s against federation
Think its just built in such a way that federation isn’t needed. Your server data is just your server.
Like ventrilo or teamspeak
Both ! Use Matrix with tech savy friends and Signal with your family
Signal requires your phone number, which is not only quite bad for privacy, but also easy to block 2FA for your government if it decides it doesn’t like private chats.
