This reply perfectly demonstrates the problem. You do not actually understand imperialism, so every time the argument moves into political economy you retreat into vibes, NGO articles, and moral equivalence.
You keep flooding links about Russia funding far-right groups as if anyone denied that. No one did. The point you keep dodging is causality. Funding does not create fascism. It exploits conditions that already exist. Capitalist crisis creates fascism. Foreign money only rides the wave. You are confusing acceleration with origin.
If Russian money alone created fascism, then far-right movements would not have existed before 2014. They did. They existed long before Putin was president. They surged hardest after austerity, privatization, housing collapse, labor precarity, and social-democratic betrayal. That is material causation. Your articles do not refute that.
What you are doing is substituting investigation with courtroom rhetoric. “Here are some links” is not analysis.
You still do not understand what imperialism is.
Imperialism is not “any country with power.” It is a system of global capital accumulation where monopoly finance capital extracts surplus value from the periphery through unequal exchange, debt regimes, trade control, sanctions, and military enforcement. Lenin defined this over 100 years ago. Russia does not control global finance, shipping lanes, reserve currency, payment systems, or international lending institutions. The US and EU do.
That is why Russia can act regionally but not systemically.
That is why Russia cannot impose structural adjustment on Africa or Latin America.
That is why Russia cannot sanction half the planet.
That is why Russia cannot print the world’s money.
Calling every state “equally imperialist” is not anti-imperialism. It is analytical laziness that flattens reality until power disappears.
You accuse me of “skipping” China and the USSR in Africa. Again, you do not understand exploitation. Building infrastructure, providing loans without regime change, and exchanging commodities is not the same as imperial extraction. Unequal exchange means extracting surplus value through pricing power and financial domination. China gains commodities. The West gains permanent dependency. These are not the same relationships.
You keep repeating that Eastern Europe is richer now. Yes. Because you became part of the imperial core’s labor chain. Cheap labor, subcontracting, offshoring, and EU capital inflows integrated Poland upward while Africa and Latin America were pushed further down. Someone always pays. Your growth did not come from “democracy.” It came from position in the global hierarchy.
That is exactly what you refuse to confront.
You talk endlessly about oligarchs but refuse to name the system that produces them. Oligarchy is not a personality defect. It is the inevitable outcome of capital accumulation. That is why oligarchs exist everywhere capitalism exists, including Norway, including Germany, including the US.
Calling China “state capitalism” while praising Nordic capitalism just reveals which ruling class you emotionally trust.
Your hatred of “authoritarianism” is not political. It is aesthetic. You dislike governments that look rough while tolerating governments that politely manage exploitation.
You claim social democracy is closer to socialism. This is historically false. Social democracy preserved capitalism by pacifying labor while imperial extraction funded concessions. When that extraction weakened, social democracy collapsed and immediately shifted right. That is not socialism in transition. That is capitalism in disguise.
This is why social democrats sided with fascists against communists in Germany. This is why they crushed revolutionary workers repeatedly. This is why they manage austerity today. Not accident. Function.
You keep shouting “strawman” because you cannot answer structure with intention. Materialism does not care what you personally support. It examines what systems do.
You are emotionally anti-imperialist but analytically liberal.
You oppose empire morally while repeating its framework intellectually.
You believe imperialism is bad but refuse to analyze who runs the world economy.
You want socialism but reject every historical attempt because it was “authoritarian,” while defending systems that kill millions quietly through debt, sanctions, poverty, and privatized healthcare.
That contradiction is not incidental. It is social-democratic ideology.
You are angry at capitalism’s outcomes while defending its global architecture.
Until you stop replacing class relations with morality and geopolitics with headlines, you will keep mistaking symptoms for causes.
That is why you think Russia explains fascism.
It does not.
Capitalism does.
You are a child who lacks any understanding of the world beyond vibes if you don’t want to be called a liberal try moving beyond being one first before throwing a tantrum at it being pointed out.
I took some time to cool down despite your smug arrogance really pushing my buttons and realized something.
We are approaching this from completely different frameworks. You are arguing from a liberal moral viewpoint that looks for bad actors, foreign interference, and individual state behavior. I am using a dialectical materialist analysis that looks at systems, class relations, and material causation. You focus on who funds what; I focus on why those movements gain mass support in the first place. You treat propaganda and foreign money as the source of fascism, while I see them as secondary factors that exploit conditions created by capitalist crisis. You define imperialism as any powerful country acting aggressively; I define it as a structured system of global capital domination based on finance control, unequal exchange, debt, and institutions. Because of this, you reduce politics to morality and geopolitics, while I analyze political economy and class power. Until that difference is acknowledged, we are not disagreeing on facts but talking past each other.
You do not actually understand imperialism, so every time the argument moves into political economy you retreat into vibes, NGO articles, and moral equivalence.
Ad personam, zero arguments.
You keep flooding links about Russia funding far-right groups as if anyone denied that.
And yet, you’re trying to prove, that russian far right wing regime, and its imperialism it’s not a supporter of far right in the west.
Funding does not create fascism.
So, funding very radical organizations does not creates them? Look what mostly west imperialism did in the middle east just by funding religious radicals. Funding far right organizations in the hard times, it’s like adding fuel to the fire.
If Russian money alone created fascism,
This is the point that no one is stated. This is your straw man argument, that you’re trying to push for a long time, and then answering “russia is not the responsible”. Keep your straw man for yourself.
“Here are some links” is not analysis.
Giving your the links from so many sources, from Al Jazeera to The Guardian and so on. In some links there were official photos from official meeting of far right parties from europe, and everything was happening in russia for russian money and they were proud ot if. And yet for you its not analyze.
Imperialism is not “any country with power.”
No one is stating that. Stop with your lies. Russia is an imperialistic country, best example is attack on Ukraine, or whet they did in Georgia, and all the bad things that they are funding in europe, and so on and so on.
Ok, let’s go back to school, you will learn something. What is imperialism:
imperialism, state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas. Because it always involves the use of power, whether military or economic or some subtler form, imperialism has often been considered morally reprehensible, and the term is frequently employed in international propaganda to denounce and discredit an opponent’s foreign policy.
Britanica.
And what are the key parts of imperialism: Economic control? Yes, russia wants it for example in Ukraine or Belarus. Militarism - of course. Territorial expansion - of course, like attack on Ukraine, Cultural Influence - yes, funding far right wing shit in europe, or push of russian language in Belarus. What have i missed?
Of course Russia is not only imperialistic country. USA is way richer country, so they can send more troops around the world.
You accuse me of “skipping” China and the USSR in Africa.
Pretending that China or Russia is not as exploitive as west in the Africa, is a big lie. Please, stop charitiwashing of east imperialism exploiting Africa. Please, stop it.
You keep repeating that Eastern Europe is richer now. Yes. Because you became part of the imperial core’s labor chain.
No, it’s because in europe and west we’re at least pretending to respect human rights, labor laws, and thanks to situation after the war, middle class was created in the west, thus there’s still some money left in the middle class (but thanks to the neoliberalism, oligarch slowly sucking it from us). In the post soviet countries, after the collapse of the soviets, oligarchs was able to take almost everything to themself, so there’s not a lot left, and there’s no middle class, there’s very little consumption, people are poor, non educated, therefore economy is not very efficient.
Poland is a part of richer part of the world, so it’s quite obvious that we’re going to be richer. And remember, that Russia sold way more stuff, and start doing it way earlier than Poland. And yet, in Russia all the money goes to oligarchs. So regular people was not benefiting from this.
And now look on the China, and compare it to russia. China was in a pretty bad situation 30 years ago. But they invest tons and tons of money in the knowledge building, in the science, heavy industry, and so on, and now they are one of the biggest economy in the world. And in the same time, russia that was pretty rich 30 years ago, once again is very poor and shitty thanks to the oligarchs. There are a lot of bad things that we can say about state capitalism that is in the China, but still they are able to use neoliberalism in the west, and suck a lot of money from west, and bring it to China. Neoliberalism is way worst than state capitalism.
Cheap labor, subcontracting, offshoring,
And China is doing way more of that, and it’s getting richer way faster. Russia is also doing that, but thanks to oligarchs, they are failing.
EU capital inflows integrated Poland upward while Africa and Latin America were pushed further down.
And yet, Chins, is the capitol of manufacturing cheap stuff, and most of the minerals and materials are coming to china from Africa and Latin America. China is benefiting way more from Africa than EU. Why are you skipping China here?
Calling China “state capitalism” while praising Nordic capitalism just reveals which ruling class you emotionally trust.
Why are you lying? It’s so tiring, when I’m trying to give you some answers, and then you’re lying all the time, and i have to send answers to straw arguments.
China is a state capitalist country. That’s fact. What this have to do with Norway capitalism? I don’t know. Norway is a social democracy with mixed market economy. Quality of life, and labor laws are way better in Norway. Norway build it’s economy power, thanks to natural resources.
our hatred of “authoritarianism” is not political. It is aesthetic. You dislike governments that look rough while tolerating governments that politely manage exploitation.
DUDE STOP LYING_ stop ad personam. This is really rude.
As i said, i hate authoritarian regimes, that’s why I’m not a fan of any ruling class, no matter is it in Soviet Union, China, USA, or any other part of the world. And you’re pretending that imperialism and exploitation is mostly western problem. Stop lying.
This is why social democrats sided
And why Soviet Unions sided with Nazis in 1939, and they worked with Nazis on attack on Poland in 1939? And what this have to do with todays world? I have no idea.
And why are you trying to picture me as a fan of social democracy? I have no idea.
So stop lying.
You keep shouting “strawman” because you cannot answer structure with intention.
Ad personam, you’re also creating a lot of ad personam, insults. Like this one.
You are emotionally anti-imperialist but analytically liberal. You oppose empire morally while repeating its framework intellectually. You believe imperialism is bad but refuse to analyze who runs the world economy.
More lies and insults.
BTW. Oligarchs and few selected groups are ruling world economy. I listed them somewhere earlier. And countries that you’re protecting, russia and china, are part of many of these groups. But what this have to do with anything, i have no idea.
You want socialism but reject every historical attempt because it was “authoritarian,”
One more lie. Just because soviet union failed because ruling class emerged after few decades, and then it has nothing to do with socialism, or because china is state capitalism, it doesn’t mean that i’m rejecting any socialist movements.
And if you stop lying, i can give you example of socialist movement that actual worked, but it was then attacked by all the authoritarian regimes:
I’m happy that once again i can teach you something :)
You are angry at capitalism’s outcomes while defending its global architecture.
More lies. Just because I’m against russian imperialism and china state capitalism, remember that I’m also USA imperialism and exploitation of African countries. But at least, I’m admitting that Africa is exploited by west and east imperialistic countries.
That is why you think Russia explains fascism.
Expands maybe? But i gave you a lot of proofs that russia is supporting facist movements around the world. So you skipped the facts and proofs, and now you’re pretending that i never send it ? Dude XD
ou are a child who lacks any understanding of the world beyond vibes if you don’t want to be called a liberal try moving beyond being one first before throwing a tantrum at it being pointed out.
Stop licking east imperialistic boots, russia is clearly imperialistic country, it’s a far right wing authoritarian regime, and you’re licking their boots so hard. I don’t understand, what someone who supports far right authoritarian regime, is doing on this board. Are you a troll or something?
You can lie and insult me as much as possible, but this does not make you right, or far right wing imperialistic authoritarian russian regime, a force of good.
Your response perfectly demonstrates why this conversation is going nowhere. You are arguing in bad faith, constantly negging, and acting like European chauvinist intellectual royalty while showing a complete lack of understanding of imperialism, class, or political economy. You misrepresent my arguments at every turn, expand the scope endlessly to avoid engaging the core issues, and reduce structural analysis to moral outrage and citations.
You insist that Russian funding of far-right groups “proves” something, but you cannot distinguish secondary influence from primary causation. Fascism did not emerge because Russia wrote checks; it emerges from capitalist crisis, austerity, precarity, and social-democratic betrayal. You treat explanation as denial and causation as endorsement, which is a methodological failure, not a factual dispute. Providing links and photos does not replace analysis. Your reliance on these citations shows you mistake evidence for explanation.
Your definition of imperialism is liberal and superficial. Quoting Britannica and reducing it to military aggression, territorial expansion, or cultural influence completely misses the Marxist point: imperialism is structural, rooted in finance, unequal exchange, debt, and institutional control. Russia may act regionally, but it does not control global finance, the reserve currency, or systemic mechanisms of exploitation. Flattening all actors into moral equivalence erases hierarchy and avoids engaging the real causes of global inequality.
You also misinterpret Eastern Europe’s relative growth as a result of democracy or labor law respect, ignoring the fact that integration into EU labor chains relies on exploitation elsewhere Africa, Latin America, and the periphery pay the cost. You conflate comparative development with justice or institutional success. Similarly, expanding the discussion to China, NATO, the USSR, or historical 1939 events is a constant red herring designed to distract from the structural argument about capitalism, class, and imperialism.
You personalize structural phenomena, calling out oligarchs and naming small groups while refusing to address the system that produces them. You repeatedly accuse me of lying, being ad personam, or defending Russia, which is projection. You are emotionally anti-imperialist but analytically liberal: you moralize actors and events while refusing to analyze class relations, capital accumulation, and systemic causation. That is why your arguments collapse into moral equivalence, citation lists, and endless historical trivia.
A third party reading this should understand the real divide here: I explain why crises, fascism, and reaction emerge from capitalism itself. You obsess over who is bad and who “funded” what, never grappling with the system that shapes outcomes. That is the fundamental difference between liberal moralism and dialectical materialism, and until that is acknowledged, no amount of links, indignation, or historical examples will get beyond talking past each other.
Agree, since you’re not responding to any argument, and you’re only sending straw man arguments and and personam, it’s hard.
You are arguing in bad faith, constantly negging
You’re insulting me all the time, ignoring my arguments, evidences, logic, facts. Dude XD
acting like European chauvinist
Dude, this is too much. You’re supporting racist and homophobic regimes, like the one in russia, this is the proof, that I’m not the one who is chauvinist. Like i wrote many times, I’m against imperialism, and exploitation of less fortunate countries. I explain to you how Poland was exploited by the soviets in the past, i explain to you how Africa is exploited by west and east, and why I’m against it. And you’re supporting east imperialist just because you don’t like west. We’re not the same.
You misrepresent my arguments at every turn,
Wrong, you had no arguments. Only straw man arguments and ad personam.
You insist that Russian funding of far-right groups “proves” something,
I gave you the evidences, the facts. And my initial statement was that russia is one of the forces responsible for rise of far right shit in europe. And you’re not trying to discuss this thesis, but trying to switch our discussion to why people are poor, and poor people are more probable to radicalize. You don’t want to discuss the thesis, but want to switch to obvious thing. What would you do then, would you try to convince me, that russia is not the real imperialistic enemy of the world?
Fascism did not emerge
Oh, here we go XD I knew it, that you will push narrative, that we don’t have to care about russia funding far right movements, it’s fault of poor people XD
Providing links and photos does not replace analysis.
Yup, facts are not facts, we don’t have to care. Comon need to lick putin’s boots. Let’s do it, russia is good, west is bad, what’s wrong? XD
Stop lying dude/
Quoting Britannica
Yup, again, facts are not facts, and russian imperialism doesn’t matter, because ad personam ad personam, insult, insult.
Russia may act regionally, but it does not control global finance,
Russia is a part of the same groups, that you mentioned before as a groups that are in the control. And russian oligarchs have influences all over the world.
Ok, we can go back to Africa, that is exploited by many countries, including ruSSia. Who is sending state funded paramilitary forces called Wagner Group?
Why they are killing and performing military shit there? We all knows. This is part of the militarism, that should not be there if your argument is right.
ignoring the fact that integration into EU labor chains relies on exploitation elsewhere Africa, Latin America, and the periphery pay the cost
So, you’re talking about exploitation that China is a big part of the process, and russia is just too poor to be a part of, because for russian oligarchs exploitation of regular people is the most of what they know how to do. Remember, that huge part of russian economy is selling oil. Why regular people are not gaining nothing from the oil, and most of the money is going to private hands? Here’s your exploitation and imperialism from ruSSia.
You personalize structural phenomena, calling out oligarchs and naming small groups while refusing to address the system that produces them.
More lies, keep lying, and creating straw man arguments.
And then go back to licking putin’s boot.
You sound like a russian AI bot, sorry, i will not send you any answer.
I’m going to try to reset the tone and be clearer and without escalating this further.
I don’t support the Russian state, its oligarchs, or its internal politics. I’m Chinese, and my position is not based on liking or defending Russia. The issue is methodological. Disliking a government does not mean we can abandon serious analysis and replace it with moral labeling. Saying “this state is bad” is not the same thing as explaining how global power actually works.
I accept that I responded sharply at points. That said, the conversation deteriorated because any structural analysis I raised was immediately treated as propaganda or bootlicking. That reaction reflects a very common Western tendency to view people from the periphery as illegitimate speakers unless we repeat liberal conclusions. That dynamic matters, because it shuts down discussion before it even begins.
On China specifically: calling it “state capitalism” as a dismissal misunderstands Marxist theory. Lenin was explicit that state capitalism under proletarian political control is a necessary transitional stage in underdeveloped conditions. China has contradictions and real internal problems, but those are not the subject here. The discussion began with your claim that Russia is responsible for the rise of European fascism. Constantly shifting the debate to China avoids addressing that claim directly.
Imperialism is not defined simply by warfare, territorial disputes, or influence. It is a system of global capital accumulation based on monopoly finance, reserve currency power, control of trade routes, sanctions, debt regimes, and international institutions. The US, EU, NATO, and Five Eyes bloc dominate these structures. They can impose structural adjustment, control global payments, freeze assets worldwide, and extract surplus value permanently from the periphery. Russia and China cannot do this. They do not control the IMF, World Bank, SWIFT, global shipping insurance, or the world’s reserve currency. This is a structural distinction, not a moral defense of any state.
Yes, Russia operates regionally. Yes, it funds political actors abroad. That is not disputed. What is disputed is causality. Fascism does not originate from foreign funding. It arises from capitalist crisis. Austerity, privatization, labor precarity, housing collapse, and the betrayal of social democracy create the mass base for reaction. External funding can intensify these contradictions, but it cannot create them. Fuel is not the same thing as ignition.
If foreign money were the cause, Europe would not have produced fascist movements long before Putin, long before modern Russia, and long before 2014. European fascism is not imported. It is homegrown, rooted in European capitalism itself.
I will reiterate our disagreement is therefore not about whether Russia engages in harmful behavior which was never in question. It is about analytical framework. You approach politics through liberal moral reasoning focused on bad actors and state behavior. I approach it through dialectical materialism, focusing on systems, class relations, and global hierarchy.
This reply perfectly demonstrates the problem. You do not actually understand imperialism, so every time the argument moves into political economy you retreat into vibes, NGO articles, and moral equivalence.
You keep flooding links about Russia funding far-right groups as if anyone denied that. No one did. The point you keep dodging is causality. Funding does not create fascism. It exploits conditions that already exist. Capitalist crisis creates fascism. Foreign money only rides the wave. You are confusing acceleration with origin.
If Russian money alone created fascism, then far-right movements would not have existed before 2014. They did. They existed long before Putin was president. They surged hardest after austerity, privatization, housing collapse, labor precarity, and social-democratic betrayal. That is material causation. Your articles do not refute that.
What you are doing is substituting investigation with courtroom rhetoric. “Here are some links” is not analysis.
You still do not understand what imperialism is.
Imperialism is not “any country with power.” It is a system of global capital accumulation where monopoly finance capital extracts surplus value from the periphery through unequal exchange, debt regimes, trade control, sanctions, and military enforcement. Lenin defined this over 100 years ago. Russia does not control global finance, shipping lanes, reserve currency, payment systems, or international lending institutions. The US and EU do.
That is why Russia can act regionally but not systemically.
That is why Russia cannot impose structural adjustment on Africa or Latin America.
That is why Russia cannot sanction half the planet.
That is why Russia cannot print the world’s money.
Calling every state “equally imperialist” is not anti-imperialism. It is analytical laziness that flattens reality until power disappears.
You accuse me of “skipping” China and the USSR in Africa. Again, you do not understand exploitation. Building infrastructure, providing loans without regime change, and exchanging commodities is not the same as imperial extraction. Unequal exchange means extracting surplus value through pricing power and financial domination. China gains commodities. The West gains permanent dependency. These are not the same relationships.
You keep repeating that Eastern Europe is richer now. Yes. Because you became part of the imperial core’s labor chain. Cheap labor, subcontracting, offshoring, and EU capital inflows integrated Poland upward while Africa and Latin America were pushed further down. Someone always pays. Your growth did not come from “democracy.” It came from position in the global hierarchy.
That is exactly what you refuse to confront.
You talk endlessly about oligarchs but refuse to name the system that produces them. Oligarchy is not a personality defect. It is the inevitable outcome of capital accumulation. That is why oligarchs exist everywhere capitalism exists, including Norway, including Germany, including the US.
Calling China “state capitalism” while praising Nordic capitalism just reveals which ruling class you emotionally trust.
Your hatred of “authoritarianism” is not political. It is aesthetic. You dislike governments that look rough while tolerating governments that politely manage exploitation.
You claim social democracy is closer to socialism. This is historically false. Social democracy preserved capitalism by pacifying labor while imperial extraction funded concessions. When that extraction weakened, social democracy collapsed and immediately shifted right. That is not socialism in transition. That is capitalism in disguise.
This is why social democrats sided with fascists against communists in Germany. This is why they crushed revolutionary workers repeatedly. This is why they manage austerity today. Not accident. Function.
You keep shouting “strawman” because you cannot answer structure with intention. Materialism does not care what you personally support. It examines what systems do.
You are emotionally anti-imperialist but analytically liberal.
You oppose empire morally while repeating its framework intellectually.
You believe imperialism is bad but refuse to analyze who runs the world economy.
You want socialism but reject every historical attempt because it was “authoritarian,” while defending systems that kill millions quietly through debt, sanctions, poverty, and privatized healthcare.
That contradiction is not incidental. It is social-democratic ideology.
You are angry at capitalism’s outcomes while defending its global architecture.
Until you stop replacing class relations with morality and geopolitics with headlines, you will keep mistaking symptoms for causes.
That is why you think Russia explains fascism.
It does not.
Capitalism does.
You are a child who lacks any understanding of the world beyond vibes if you don’t want to be called a liberal try moving beyond being one first before throwing a tantrum at it being pointed out.
I took some time to cool down despite your smug arrogance really pushing my buttons and realized something. We are approaching this from completely different frameworks. You are arguing from a liberal moral viewpoint that looks for bad actors, foreign interference, and individual state behavior. I am using a dialectical materialist analysis that looks at systems, class relations, and material causation. You focus on who funds what; I focus on why those movements gain mass support in the first place. You treat propaganda and foreign money as the source of fascism, while I see them as secondary factors that exploit conditions created by capitalist crisis. You define imperialism as any powerful country acting aggressively; I define it as a structured system of global capital domination based on finance control, unequal exchange, debt, and institutions. Because of this, you reduce politics to morality and geopolitics, while I analyze political economy and class power. Until that difference is acknowledged, we are not disagreeing on facts but talking past each other.
Ad personam, zero arguments.
And yet, you’re trying to prove, that russian far right wing regime, and its imperialism it’s not a supporter of far right in the west.
So, funding very radical organizations does not creates them? Look what mostly west imperialism did in the middle east just by funding religious radicals. Funding far right organizations in the hard times, it’s like adding fuel to the fire.
This is the point that no one is stated. This is your straw man argument, that you’re trying to push for a long time, and then answering “russia is not the responsible”. Keep your straw man for yourself.
Giving your the links from so many sources, from Al Jazeera to The Guardian and so on. In some links there were official photos from official meeting of far right parties from europe, and everything was happening in russia for russian money and they were proud ot if. And yet for you its not analyze.
No one is stating that. Stop with your lies. Russia is an imperialistic country, best example is attack on Ukraine, or whet they did in Georgia, and all the bad things that they are funding in europe, and so on and so on.
Ok, let’s go back to school, you will learn something. What is imperialism:
Britanica.
And what are the key parts of imperialism: Economic control? Yes, russia wants it for example in Ukraine or Belarus. Militarism - of course. Territorial expansion - of course, like attack on Ukraine, Cultural Influence - yes, funding far right wing shit in europe, or push of russian language in Belarus. What have i missed?
Of course Russia is not only imperialistic country. USA is way richer country, so they can send more troops around the world.
Pretending that China or Russia is not as exploitive as west in the Africa, is a big lie. Please, stop charitiwashing of east imperialism exploiting Africa. Please, stop it.
No, it’s because in europe and west we’re at least pretending to respect human rights, labor laws, and thanks to situation after the war, middle class was created in the west, thus there’s still some money left in the middle class (but thanks to the neoliberalism, oligarch slowly sucking it from us). In the post soviet countries, after the collapse of the soviets, oligarchs was able to take almost everything to themself, so there’s not a lot left, and there’s no middle class, there’s very little consumption, people are poor, non educated, therefore economy is not very efficient.
Poland is a part of richer part of the world, so it’s quite obvious that we’re going to be richer. And remember, that Russia sold way more stuff, and start doing it way earlier than Poland. And yet, in Russia all the money goes to oligarchs. So regular people was not benefiting from this.
And now look on the China, and compare it to russia. China was in a pretty bad situation 30 years ago. But they invest tons and tons of money in the knowledge building, in the science, heavy industry, and so on, and now they are one of the biggest economy in the world. And in the same time, russia that was pretty rich 30 years ago, once again is very poor and shitty thanks to the oligarchs. There are a lot of bad things that we can say about state capitalism that is in the China, but still they are able to use neoliberalism in the west, and suck a lot of money from west, and bring it to China. Neoliberalism is way worst than state capitalism.
And China is doing way more of that, and it’s getting richer way faster. Russia is also doing that, but thanks to oligarchs, they are failing.
And yet, Chins, is the capitol of manufacturing cheap stuff, and most of the minerals and materials are coming to china from Africa and Latin America. China is benefiting way more from Africa than EU. Why are you skipping China here?
Why are you lying? It’s so tiring, when I’m trying to give you some answers, and then you’re lying all the time, and i have to send answers to straw arguments.
China is a state capitalist country. That’s fact. What this have to do with Norway capitalism? I don’t know. Norway is a social democracy with mixed market economy. Quality of life, and labor laws are way better in Norway. Norway build it’s economy power, thanks to natural resources.
DUDE STOP LYING_ stop ad personam. This is really rude.
As i said, i hate authoritarian regimes, that’s why I’m not a fan of any ruling class, no matter is it in Soviet Union, China, USA, or any other part of the world. And you’re pretending that imperialism and exploitation is mostly western problem. Stop lying.
And why Soviet Unions sided with Nazis in 1939, and they worked with Nazis on attack on Poland in 1939? And what this have to do with todays world? I have no idea.
And why are you trying to picture me as a fan of social democracy? I have no idea.
So stop lying.
Ad personam, you’re also creating a lot of ad personam, insults. Like this one.
More lies and insults.
BTW. Oligarchs and few selected groups are ruling world economy. I listed them somewhere earlier. And countries that you’re protecting, russia and china, are part of many of these groups. But what this have to do with anything, i have no idea.
One more lie. Just because soviet union failed because ruling class emerged after few decades, and then it has nothing to do with socialism, or because china is state capitalism, it doesn’t mean that i’m rejecting any socialist movements.
And if you stop lying, i can give you example of socialist movement that actual worked, but it was then attacked by all the authoritarian regimes:
https://kolektiva.media/w/pKgGZtPdpr8MBeMxNTQjGJ?start=35m53s
I’m happy that once again i can teach you something :)
More lies. Just because I’m against russian imperialism and china state capitalism, remember that I’m also USA imperialism and exploitation of African countries. But at least, I’m admitting that Africa is exploited by west and east imperialistic countries.
Expands maybe? But i gave you a lot of proofs that russia is supporting facist movements around the world. So you skipped the facts and proofs, and now you’re pretending that i never send it ? Dude XD
Stop licking east imperialistic boots, russia is clearly imperialistic country, it’s a far right wing authoritarian regime, and you’re licking their boots so hard. I don’t understand, what someone who supports far right authoritarian regime, is doing on this board. Are you a troll or something?
You can lie and insult me as much as possible, but this does not make you right, or far right wing imperialistic authoritarian russian regime, a force of good.
Your response perfectly demonstrates why this conversation is going nowhere. You are arguing in bad faith, constantly negging, and acting like European chauvinist intellectual royalty while showing a complete lack of understanding of imperialism, class, or political economy. You misrepresent my arguments at every turn, expand the scope endlessly to avoid engaging the core issues, and reduce structural analysis to moral outrage and citations.
You insist that Russian funding of far-right groups “proves” something, but you cannot distinguish secondary influence from primary causation. Fascism did not emerge because Russia wrote checks; it emerges from capitalist crisis, austerity, precarity, and social-democratic betrayal. You treat explanation as denial and causation as endorsement, which is a methodological failure, not a factual dispute. Providing links and photos does not replace analysis. Your reliance on these citations shows you mistake evidence for explanation.
Your definition of imperialism is liberal and superficial. Quoting Britannica and reducing it to military aggression, territorial expansion, or cultural influence completely misses the Marxist point: imperialism is structural, rooted in finance, unequal exchange, debt, and institutional control. Russia may act regionally, but it does not control global finance, the reserve currency, or systemic mechanisms of exploitation. Flattening all actors into moral equivalence erases hierarchy and avoids engaging the real causes of global inequality.
You also misinterpret Eastern Europe’s relative growth as a result of democracy or labor law respect, ignoring the fact that integration into EU labor chains relies on exploitation elsewhere Africa, Latin America, and the periphery pay the cost. You conflate comparative development with justice or institutional success. Similarly, expanding the discussion to China, NATO, the USSR, or historical 1939 events is a constant red herring designed to distract from the structural argument about capitalism, class, and imperialism.
You personalize structural phenomena, calling out oligarchs and naming small groups while refusing to address the system that produces them. You repeatedly accuse me of lying, being ad personam, or defending Russia, which is projection. You are emotionally anti-imperialist but analytically liberal: you moralize actors and events while refusing to analyze class relations, capital accumulation, and systemic causation. That is why your arguments collapse into moral equivalence, citation lists, and endless historical trivia.
A third party reading this should understand the real divide here: I explain why crises, fascism, and reaction emerge from capitalism itself. You obsess over who is bad and who “funded” what, never grappling with the system that shapes outcomes. That is the fundamental difference between liberal moralism and dialectical materialism, and until that is acknowledged, no amount of links, indignation, or historical examples will get beyond talking past each other.
Agree, since you’re not responding to any argument, and you’re only sending straw man arguments and and personam, it’s hard.
You’re insulting me all the time, ignoring my arguments, evidences, logic, facts. Dude XD
Dude, this is too much. You’re supporting racist and homophobic regimes, like the one in russia, this is the proof, that I’m not the one who is chauvinist. Like i wrote many times, I’m against imperialism, and exploitation of less fortunate countries. I explain to you how Poland was exploited by the soviets in the past, i explain to you how Africa is exploited by west and east, and why I’m against it. And you’re supporting east imperialist just because you don’t like west. We’re not the same.
Wrong, you had no arguments. Only straw man arguments and ad personam.
I gave you the evidences, the facts. And my initial statement was that russia is one of the forces responsible for rise of far right shit in europe. And you’re not trying to discuss this thesis, but trying to switch our discussion to why people are poor, and poor people are more probable to radicalize. You don’t want to discuss the thesis, but want to switch to obvious thing. What would you do then, would you try to convince me, that russia is not the real imperialistic enemy of the world?
Oh, here we go XD I knew it, that you will push narrative, that we don’t have to care about russia funding far right movements, it’s fault of poor people XD
Yup, facts are not facts, we don’t have to care. Comon need to lick putin’s boots. Let’s do it, russia is good, west is bad, what’s wrong? XD
Stop lying dude/
Yup, again, facts are not facts, and russian imperialism doesn’t matter, because ad personam ad personam, insult, insult.
Russia is a part of the same groups, that you mentioned before as a groups that are in the control. And russian oligarchs have influences all over the world.
Ok, we can go back to Africa, that is exploited by many countries, including ruSSia. Who is sending state funded paramilitary forces called Wagner Group?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group_activities_in_Africa
Why they are killing and performing military shit there? We all knows. This is part of the militarism, that should not be there if your argument is right.
So, you’re talking about exploitation that China is a big part of the process, and russia is just too poor to be a part of, because for russian oligarchs exploitation of regular people is the most of what they know how to do. Remember, that huge part of russian economy is selling oil. Why regular people are not gaining nothing from the oil, and most of the money is going to private hands? Here’s your exploitation and imperialism from ruSSia.
More lies, keep lying, and creating straw man arguments.
And then go back to licking putin’s boot.
You sound like a russian AI bot, sorry, i will not send you any answer.
I’m going to try to reset the tone and be clearer and without escalating this further.
I don’t support the Russian state, its oligarchs, or its internal politics. I’m Chinese, and my position is not based on liking or defending Russia. The issue is methodological. Disliking a government does not mean we can abandon serious analysis and replace it with moral labeling. Saying “this state is bad” is not the same thing as explaining how global power actually works.
I accept that I responded sharply at points. That said, the conversation deteriorated because any structural analysis I raised was immediately treated as propaganda or bootlicking. That reaction reflects a very common Western tendency to view people from the periphery as illegitimate speakers unless we repeat liberal conclusions. That dynamic matters, because it shuts down discussion before it even begins.
On China specifically: calling it “state capitalism” as a dismissal misunderstands Marxist theory. Lenin was explicit that state capitalism under proletarian political control is a necessary transitional stage in underdeveloped conditions. China has contradictions and real internal problems, but those are not the subject here. The discussion began with your claim that Russia is responsible for the rise of European fascism. Constantly shifting the debate to China avoids addressing that claim directly.
Imperialism is not defined simply by warfare, territorial disputes, or influence. It is a system of global capital accumulation based on monopoly finance, reserve currency power, control of trade routes, sanctions, debt regimes, and international institutions. The US, EU, NATO, and Five Eyes bloc dominate these structures. They can impose structural adjustment, control global payments, freeze assets worldwide, and extract surplus value permanently from the periphery. Russia and China cannot do this. They do not control the IMF, World Bank, SWIFT, global shipping insurance, or the world’s reserve currency. This is a structural distinction, not a moral defense of any state.
Yes, Russia operates regionally. Yes, it funds political actors abroad. That is not disputed. What is disputed is causality. Fascism does not originate from foreign funding. It arises from capitalist crisis. Austerity, privatization, labor precarity, housing collapse, and the betrayal of social democracy create the mass base for reaction. External funding can intensify these contradictions, but it cannot create them. Fuel is not the same thing as ignition.
If foreign money were the cause, Europe would not have produced fascist movements long before Putin, long before modern Russia, and long before 2014. European fascism is not imported. It is homegrown, rooted in European capitalism itself.
I will reiterate our disagreement is therefore not about whether Russia engages in harmful behavior which was never in question. It is about analytical framework. You approach politics through liberal moral reasoning focused on bad actors and state behavior. I approach it through dialectical materialism, focusing on systems, class relations, and global hierarchy.
That is the core issue.