A 24-year-old man in Norway was arrested for playing the Japanese visual novel Dorei to no Seikatsu. The case sparks debate over Norwegian laws treating explicit animations as illegal material.
It’s a little more than a drawing, it’s an h game literally about grooming an underaged abused child to have sex with you. It’s child pornography, the Norwegian government rightly recognizes it as such and it’s fucking disgusting.
Imagine getting Nuremberg’ed for playing as Germany in HOI4 (and trying the historical route).
I mean, beyond the obvious that child abuse is never condonable, this particular action circles back to questions like “does video games cause violence?” and the role of the state in administering justice.
HOI4 is an interesting choice for an analogy here.
It’s unanalagous in that HOI4 sanitized itself of the Holocaust specifically so people wouldn’t be able to roleplay committing xenophobic genocide, unlike the game in question which is specifically designed to let you roleplay a pedophile rapist preying on the already abused.
However it is tangentially analogous in the sense that anime tends to have a bit of a Nazi bar issue with pedophilia thanks to people (who I’m gonna have to assume are well intentioned) unintentionally making room for pedophiles to exist and operate with arguments just like the ones you’re making here.
Of course video games don’t cause violence. The only people interested in the pedophile rapist roleplay visual novel, though, are very likely people with an interest in pedophilia. The government is right to monitor and remove people who acquire CSAM instead of going to therapy from society and it isn’t overreach to protect children in this way. Is there a potential for such a system to be abused by the government? Yes, of course, but such is true of any system. Preventing government abuse and corruption is separate from stopping the distribution of CSAM and protecting children from predators.
It’s unanalagous in that HOI4 sanitized itself of the Holocaust specifically so people wouldn’t be able to roleplay committing xenophobic genocide, unlike the game in question which is specifically designed to let you roleplay a pedophile rapist preying on the already abused.
Fair. Follow-up questions:
If someone mods HOI4 to include aspects of the Holocaust and all the other Nazi stuff, does that make this particular copy of the game hate material? (IMO: it would be in areas where Nazi symbolism is banned, similar to how Norwegian law makes Dorei to no Seikatsu illegal there. People’s opinions on the material are irrelevant, it’s what the law of the land says)
Conversely, if Dorei no Seikatsu hypothetically censors or tones down the graphic/explicit portions, but the story essentially remains the same, would it be considered CSAM in Norway?
However it is tangentially analogous in the sense that anime tends to have a bit of a Nazi bar issue with pedophilia thanks to people (who I’m gonna have to assume are well intentioned) unintentionally making room for pedophiles to exist and operate with arguments just like the ones you’re making here.
I see the concern that pedophiles continue to abuse children. There’s degrees of handling the problem, up to and including measures like Chat Control and Britain’s Online Safety Act. Now, do the people have the appetite to be subject to those measures?
Which leads to…
Preventing government abuse and corruption is separate from stopping the distribution of CSAM and protecting children from predators.
I don’t trust governments eroding privacy and surveilling its people because of predators. They pass those types of measures with other goals in mind.
Dismissing pedophilic hentai as “cartoon drawings” is exactly the kind of behavior that promotes the Nazi Bar for pedophiles phenomenon I mentioned in my post. Stop making safe spaces for pedophiles.
To address your reply, I don’t think those actions are mutually exclusive. Both are CSAM and should be treated as such.
I’m not arguing against banning the hentai from websites or stores or whatever.
Police resources are limited. CSAM is rampant online. How many abused children have been made to wait for rescue while cops and the court were busy going after the guy who looks at cartoons?
I listened to the Daily podcast back in 2019 where Michael Babaro said there is so much CSAM online that the authorities had to prioritize infants 1 and under. So imagine my surprise to see resources and time spent going after drawings.
This guy wasn’t nailed on the CSAM game alone. The game is an indicator that he’s a person who is going to be consuming other CSAM.
Of course there should be more resources dedicated to preventing child abuse. That’s the issue, and not one likely to be addressed, in the US, while the highest office in the nation is filled by a pedophile. But this case didn’t occur in the US and the prioritization of which CSAM to remove first shouldn’t be a discussion, but rather it should be the allocation of more resources.
It’s not “just drawings”. It’s still child sexual abuse materials.
This guy wasn’t nailed on the CSAM game alone. The game is an indicator that he’s a person who is going to be consuming other CSAM.
I’m going to make the, possibly incorrect, assumption that it’s more drawings of CSAM. If I’m wrong though then he should obviously be locked away.
That’s not to say drawings of CSAM aren’t disgusting or should be allowed online, absolutely no website should be hosting that stuff.
But this case didn’t occur in the US and the prioritization of which CSAM to remove first shouldn’t be a discussion, but rather it should be the allocation of more resources.
You can say ‘more resources needed’, but in austerity brained Europe, and tax averse US that’s not going to happen.
In a world where authorities are letting 5 years year olds being tortured slide to protect the infants being tortured. There is a pretty clear hierarchy of priorities there.
My concern is that going after this person engaging in CSAM of drawings was easy, and going after the ones engaging with real children was difficult due to encrypted distribution channels. We’re letting the big fish rub rampant and focusing on the smaller easier to catch fish.
I can see your point and perhaps I’m too idealistic to think the relevant authorities can walk and chew gum at the same time, but I am admittedly idealistic.
And pedos deserve to be in jail because they looked played a game? Or in general? Shouldn’t we just save the taxpayer’s time and send them to the camps?
You are right, but being a pedofile should not be a crime. It’s a sexual deviation from the norm, maybe a disgusting and/or dangerous deviation, but it’s nothing different than coprofilia.
If the pedofile do not act on his/her desires and there is no illegal material or action involved, just let him/her be.
Keep an I on him/her, of course, seek counseling, but act only of and when the perversion is growing out of control.
Same thing with drugs: if you can afford them, good for you (and welcome to high society). If you can’t afford them and you screw your relationship over it, fuck you and seek counsel. But if you start to steal, kidnap, or hurt people in anyway, that’s where the line must be drawn.
Sorry, but pedophilia is vastly different than coprophilia and other outlandish fetishes in the scale of harm to others and the inability for it to ever be consensual.
I could talk about how pedophiles also tend to seek positions where they hold power dynamics over children, even ones who don’t act on their desires, increasing the likelihood of abuse, but I think your point is moreso about a hypothetical pedophile who doesn’t act on their desires, doesn’t acquire CSAM, doesn’t surround themselves with children and simply struggles internally with their fetish and actively seeks professional help on how to maintain a safe life for themselves and others.
Yes, I suppose that person doesn’t need any government intervention in their lives outside of the monitoring you suggested.
That said, this particular article is about a man who did seek out, acquire and consume CSAM instead of seeking therapy. The government detected this and removed him from society such that he cannot be a threat to children. That sounds about right.
I’m not sure if the Norwegian prison system is more focused on reform vs punitive measures, though I would hope that it should go without saying that the former is always ideal and the latter isn’t actually helpful to society.
It’s a little more than a drawing, it’s an h game literally about grooming an underaged abused child to have sex with you. It’s child pornography, the Norwegian government rightly recognizes it as such and it’s fucking disgusting.
Imagine getting Nuremberg’ed for playing as Germany in HOI4 (and trying the historical route).
I mean, beyond the obvious that child abuse is never condonable, this particular action circles back to questions like “does video games cause violence?” and the role of the state in administering justice.
The below aren’t mutually exclusive
HOI4 is an interesting choice for an analogy here.
It’s unanalagous in that HOI4 sanitized itself of the Holocaust specifically so people wouldn’t be able to roleplay committing xenophobic genocide, unlike the game in question which is specifically designed to let you roleplay a pedophile rapist preying on the already abused.
However it is tangentially analogous in the sense that anime tends to have a bit of a Nazi bar issue with pedophilia thanks to people (who I’m gonna have to assume are well intentioned) unintentionally making room for pedophiles to exist and operate with arguments just like the ones you’re making here.
Of course video games don’t cause violence. The only people interested in the pedophile rapist roleplay visual novel, though, are very likely people with an interest in pedophilia. The government is right to monitor and remove people who acquire CSAM instead of going to therapy from society and it isn’t overreach to protect children in this way. Is there a potential for such a system to be abused by the government? Yes, of course, but such is true of any system. Preventing government abuse and corruption is separate from stopping the distribution of CSAM and protecting children from predators.
Fair. Follow-up questions:
I see the concern that pedophiles continue to abuse children. There’s degrees of handling the problem, up to and including measures like Chat Control and Britain’s Online Safety Act. Now, do the people have the appetite to be subject to those measures?
Which leads to…
I don’t trust governments eroding privacy and surveilling its people because of predators. They pass those types of measures with other goals in mind.
There is no shortage of real CSAM creators to go after. Shouldn’t we prioritize going after those people ahead of drawings of cartoon characters?
Dismissing pedophilic hentai as “cartoon drawings” is exactly the kind of behavior that promotes the Nazi Bar for pedophiles phenomenon I mentioned in my post. Stop making safe spaces for pedophiles.
To address your reply, I don’t think those actions are mutually exclusive. Both are CSAM and should be treated as such.
I’m not arguing against banning the hentai from websites or stores or whatever.
Police resources are limited. CSAM is rampant online. How many abused children have been made to wait for rescue while cops and the court were busy going after the guy who looks at cartoons?
I listened to the Daily podcast back in 2019 where Michael Babaro said there is so much CSAM online that the authorities had to prioritize infants 1 and under. So imagine my surprise to see resources and time spent going after drawings.
This guy wasn’t nailed on the CSAM game alone. The game is an indicator that he’s a person who is going to be consuming other CSAM.
Of course there should be more resources dedicated to preventing child abuse. That’s the issue, and not one likely to be addressed, in the US, while the highest office in the nation is filled by a pedophile. But this case didn’t occur in the US and the prioritization of which CSAM to remove first shouldn’t be a discussion, but rather it should be the allocation of more resources.
It’s not “just drawings”. It’s still child sexual abuse materials.
I’m going to make the, possibly incorrect, assumption that it’s more drawings of CSAM. If I’m wrong though then he should obviously be locked away.
That’s not to say drawings of CSAM aren’t disgusting or should be allowed online, absolutely no website should be hosting that stuff.
You can say ‘more resources needed’, but in austerity brained Europe, and tax averse US that’s not going to happen.
In a world where authorities are letting 5 years year olds being tortured slide to protect the infants being tortured. There is a pretty clear hierarchy of priorities there.
My concern is that going after this person engaging in CSAM of drawings was easy, and going after the ones engaging with real children was difficult due to encrypted distribution channels. We’re letting the big fish rub rampant and focusing on the smaller easier to catch fish.
I can see your point and perhaps I’m too idealistic to think the relevant authorities can walk and chew gum at the same time, but I am admittedly idealistic.
Yeah sorry but people who jerk off to the pedo rape game are definitely pedos.
I am a good thought haver and I signal this by telling everyone bad thought havers should be executed
And pedos deserve to be in jail because they looked played a game? Or in general? Shouldn’t we just save the taxpayer’s time and send them to the camps?
You are right, but being a pedofile should not be a crime. It’s a sexual deviation from the norm, maybe a disgusting and/or dangerous deviation, but it’s nothing different than coprofilia.
If the pedofile do not act on his/her desires and there is no illegal material or action involved, just let him/her be.
Keep an I on him/her, of course, seek counseling, but act only of and when the perversion is growing out of control.
Same thing with drugs: if you can afford them, good for you (and welcome to high society). If you can’t afford them and you screw your relationship over it, fuck you and seek counsel. But if you start to steal, kidnap, or hurt people in anyway, that’s where the line must be drawn.
Sorry, but pedophilia is vastly different than coprophilia and other outlandish fetishes in the scale of harm to others and the inability for it to ever be consensual.
I could talk about how pedophiles also tend to seek positions where they hold power dynamics over children, even ones who don’t act on their desires, increasing the likelihood of abuse, but I think your point is moreso about a hypothetical pedophile who doesn’t act on their desires, doesn’t acquire CSAM, doesn’t surround themselves with children and simply struggles internally with their fetish and actively seeks professional help on how to maintain a safe life for themselves and others.
Yes, I suppose that person doesn’t need any government intervention in their lives outside of the monitoring you suggested.
That said, this particular article is about a man who did seek out, acquire and consume CSAM instead of seeking therapy. The government detected this and removed him from society such that he cannot be a threat to children. That sounds about right.
I’m not sure if the Norwegian prison system is more focused on reform vs punitive measures, though I would hope that it should go without saying that the former is always ideal and the latter isn’t actually helpful to society.