Negotiate an end to the war. I’d support a UN monitored vote in the Donbass region and Crimea (and any other contested area) on whether they want to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.
Let’s assume a peace is negotiated, in which each party assures it respects the aggreed-upon borders. Similar to the Budapest Memorandum, signed and broken by Russia. How could Ukraine trust them this time?
I’d support a UN monitored vote in the Donbass region and Crimea (and any other contested area) on whether they want to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.
That sounds good at first glance. But given Russia has the opportunity to persecute any opposition in the contested areas, and bring in loyal settlers, the results are likely skewed even if the vote itself is fair and transparent.
Fundamentally, I still don’t understand why one should negotiate with a burglar how much they get to keep.
Let’s assume a peace is negotiated, in which each party assures it respects the aggreed-upon borders. Similar to the Budapest Memorandum, signed and broken by Russia. How could Ukraine trust them this time?
America broke it first with the Belarus sanctions. The real question is if Russia can trust America.
And it can’t, so I guess the war will never end. We’ll argue about it for the next 20 years.
But given Russia has the opportunity to persecute any opposition in the contested areas, and bring in loyal settlers, the results are likely skewed even if the vote itself is fair and transparent.
If the UN vote monitors detect manipulation then they call it off. Simple.
You’re consistently framing this as a war between the USA and Russia. It is not. Russia invaded its neighbor(s) and held sham referendums. Negotiations must happen between Ukraine and Russia. Nobody else. Since Russia currently doesn’t even acknowledge the right of Ukraine to exist I do not see this happening soon.
I have read all of your dozens of comments. You are trying really hard to twist the words of every comment you’re responding to everywhere in this thread, until people loose interest and you can have the last say (mission accomplished?). Your replies are structured to look like counter-arguments but they don’t even address the actual points you‘re quoting. If there is nothing else left to say you simply fallback to „[…] but the USA/the West“ - irregardless of context. There is no way to argue with you in good faith. Knowing this I still think it would be wrong to have you regurgitate the imperialistic propaganda here that you‘ve apparently felt victim to without saying anything at all.
twist the words of every comment you’re responding to everywhere in this thread, until people loose interest
Can confirm, this happened to me.
WTH has America to do with this? Thanks for spelling it out.
They simply ignored the concerns I raised about the vote manipulation, pretending manipulation could only occur at the event itself, not in preparation (which was my entire point).
There is no way to argue with you in good faith.
It’s still worthwhile to address bad arguments. While you might not change the mind of the person you’re directly responding to, there are likely people in the audience who are on the fence. Offering alternative perspectives and sound reasoning can help them make up their mind. Maybe it becomes clearer if we imagine the absence of counterspeech. That situation can make a far-fetched view appear as if it was without alternatives, as if it was sound and normal. Which makes it more likely to be accepted.
I’m not sure wether it matters who has the last word.
I’d support a UN monitored vote in the Donbass region and Crimea (and any other contested area) on whether they want to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.
Not an option the Ukrainian gov will accept. Nor should they.
When parts of the USA wanted to leave that was not response from the USA.
Sorry, but as if. Russia is a UN veto power. And Russia would never accept UN troops sent by the West to oversee anything. And african nations won’t want to piss off Putin by agreeing to this. Putin wants his anti-NATO back and this war will only end with Putin thuroughly defeated.
Not to mention that such a vote would be a farce anyway. Russia has had enough time to kill, torture, intimidate or disappear enough people that such a vote could never be fair.
And as for the money spent on Ukraine, it’s but a cheap talking point to suggest that supporting Ukraine and supporting your own population are mutually exclusive. Not to mention believing that if the money wouldn’t have been spent on Ukraine, that your own people would’ve seen that money is pretty delusional. For starters, most of the support sent by the US is hardware. And the given value for that support is the replacement cost for the kit sent. However, most of the kit sent was due to be replaced anyways, so the actual cost for the US is much lower than the figure being thrown around.
this war will only end with Putin thuroughly defeated
Do you really believe that? After 3 months of this pathetic counteroffensive with nothing to show do you honestly still believe that Ukraine will turn things around with the power of friendship?
Make it make sense then. Russia invaded Ukraine, Russia wants to annex as much of Ukraine as it can, why would Russia agree to hold a fair vote that could see Russia lose all its captured territory?
Negotiate an end to the war. I’d support a UN monitored vote in the Donbass region and Crimea (and any other contested area) on whether they want to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.
Let’s assume a peace is negotiated, in which each party assures it respects the aggreed-upon borders. Similar to the Budapest Memorandum, signed and broken by Russia. How could Ukraine trust them this time?
That sounds good at first glance. But given Russia has the opportunity to persecute any opposition in the contested areas, and bring in loyal settlers, the results are likely skewed even if the vote itself is fair and transparent.
Fundamentally, I still don’t understand why one should negotiate with a burglar how much they get to keep.
America broke it first with the Belarus sanctions. The real question is if Russia can trust America.
And it can’t, so I guess the war will never end. We’ll argue about it for the next 20 years.
If the UN vote monitors detect manipulation then they call it off. Simple.
You’re consistently framing this as a war between the USA and Russia. It is not. Russia invaded its neighbor(s) and held sham referendums. Negotiations must happen between Ukraine and Russia. Nobody else. Since Russia currently doesn’t even acknowledge the right of Ukraine to exist I do not see this happening soon.
I have read all of your dozens of comments. You are trying really hard to twist the words of every comment you’re responding to everywhere in this thread, until people loose interest and you can have the last say (mission accomplished?). Your replies are structured to look like counter-arguments but they don’t even address the actual points you‘re quoting. If there is nothing else left to say you simply fallback to „[…] but the USA/the West“ - irregardless of context. There is no way to argue with you in good faith. Knowing this I still think it would be wrong to have you regurgitate the imperialistic propaganda here that you‘ve apparently felt victim to without saying anything at all.
He does that because he knows Russia was wrong to invade, can’t admit it and needs to make bullshit up to sustain his world view.
As everyone seems to say: Tankies gonna tank
Can confirm, this happened to me.
It’s still worthwhile to address bad arguments. While you might not change the mind of the person you’re directly responding to, there are likely people in the audience who are on the fence. Offering alternative perspectives and sound reasoning can help them make up their mind. Maybe it becomes clearer if we imagine the absence of counterspeech. That situation can make a far-fetched view appear as if it was without alternatives, as if it was sound and normal. Which makes it more likely to be accepted.
I’m not sure wether it matters who has the last word.
Russia refuses to give back the lands seized.
Now what to you do?
Not an option the Ukrainian gov will accept. Nor should they.
When parts of the USA wanted to leave that was not response from the USA.
Losers don’t get to dictate rules, the negotiations will be between Russia and US/NATO, it doesn’t matter what the client state thinks.
tankies are gonna tank…
I don’t expect Russia to give back lands seized. I expect the will of voters to be respected by both sides.
The Ukrainian government will accept any option we give them. They’re our puppet.
That sure as hell wasn’t democratic! It’s not like Black people got a vote.
We are talking reality here not what you want.
That has already been rejected. It is not an option.
Again: Russia will not leave, Ukraine will accept nothing but a return to the pre-invasion 2014 borders.
What do you propose?
What the fuck are you talking about? Crimea had a vote, they voted to join. There hasn’t been a vote in the Donbass.
Ukraine will do whatever the fuck we want because they are slaves to the infinite money spigot.
Ah, so you do think Putin and those like him should be able to do what ever they want.
Thanks for the confirmation.
Why do you make up shit?
I think Russia can be made to comply with a peace agreement, but it has to be a negotiation. That means give and take.
Enjoy 20 years of the next foreverwar.
“Crimea had a vote” lmao.
And Biden stole the election, too, huh?
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Rofl. You expect russia, whos already announced putin has won his next election, to respect the will of the people.
Would you like to buy the Brooklyn Bridge as well? I got the title right here.
Sorry, but as if. Russia is a UN veto power. And Russia would never accept UN troops sent by the West to oversee anything. And african nations won’t want to piss off Putin by agreeing to this. Putin wants his anti-NATO back and this war will only end with Putin thuroughly defeated.
Not to mention that such a vote would be a farce anyway. Russia has had enough time to kill, torture, intimidate or disappear enough people that such a vote could never be fair.
And as for the money spent on Ukraine, it’s but a cheap talking point to suggest that supporting Ukraine and supporting your own population are mutually exclusive. Not to mention believing that if the money wouldn’t have been spent on Ukraine, that your own people would’ve seen that money is pretty delusional. For starters, most of the support sent by the US is hardware. And the given value for that support is the replacement cost for the kit sent. However, most of the kit sent was due to be replaced anyways, so the actual cost for the US is much lower than the figure being thrown around.
Do you really believe that? After 3 months of this pathetic counteroffensive with nothing to show do you honestly still believe that Ukraine will turn things around with the power of friendship?
Russia having UN veto power is why a UN monitored vote could actually be trusted by both sides, what the hell are you talking about?
And no one is “supporting” Ukraine. They’re ensuring the war never ends, there will never be enough support to actually end the war.
Make it make sense then. Russia invaded Ukraine, Russia wants to annex as much of Ukraine as it can, why would Russia agree to hold a fair vote that could see Russia lose all its captured territory?