Not to rain on the parade, but plant milks are astronomically expensive compared to dairy milk. Plant milks need to become way cheaper than currently 5x the cost for me in India. There is only import, no local making.
Depends on where you live. In some parts of the world, it’s already cheaper. It’s worth noting here that the dairy industry receives massively outsized subsidies compared to other industries all around the world
That surprises me, since I’m told (a large part of) India deems cows holy and over here, the cheapest milk is from cows kept under inhumane conditions…
Cows are also kept under “humane” conditions. Amul is the largest dairy of Asia and the second largest behind Danone globally, and they are a socialist cooperative of women.
Standard pratices in the dairy industry are pretty brutal and really the only way to make anything cheap. For instance, what happens to the male calves after they are born? They are separated from their mothers and then shortly killed because they don’t produce milk
If you want something looking at Indian dairy farms in particular:
We found serious welfare violations on every farm we visited [over 100], including cows tethered with ropes so tightly that they couldn’t move and babies torn away from their mothers. Animals spent their entire lives tied with ropes so short they could barely lay down.
Cows were injected with harmful drugs that caused painful symptoms of labor and destroyed their reproductive systems under the mistaken notion that they increased milk production. Our investigators documented routine use of these drugs, though they are banned by the Indian government.
We even witnessed a cow being bludgeoned with a hammer, in a heartbreaking act of cruelty.
Sadly, these are all considered standard practices in India, the world’s largest producer and consumer of dairy.
Making oat milk is a really simple process & to make it more like commercially available products, you can add various other ingredients such as xanthan gum to bind it as well as various things for flavour such as a small amount of cinnamon.
Nobody has the time to do that. I am not going to put that much work (and that is not laziness) in manually making oat milk when I have a million other things to think, manage and do. This mindset will absolutely never help adoption of more vegan practices. I am all for inching towards less meat/animal related foods but it has to be viable, optimal and must not be a nutritional compromise (protein combining with one compact meal is fair).
I agree, it’s not convenient to make at home, but it is possible. I think we need to remove or adjust government funding now that cow milk is no longer the only popular option.
Plant milks need to become way cheaper than currently 5x the cost for me in India.
So you have 3 choices there:
Examine your time management as you will have time that youre actually just procrastinating or pursuing bullshit that doesnt really matter as much as you think. (Dont lie - Very few people actually dont).
I’m not vegan. I just don’t drink milk and I’m certainly not advocating veganism because you don’t have the ability to commit to 10 minutes to make your own oat milk so howTF are you going to make such a lifestyle change?
All I did was say how easy it is to make yourself as you complained about the cost and when you bleated about your very busy important lifestyle, laid out your options.
It’s quite obvious the biggest hurdle to you making changes to your life is you so good luck with that and I hope it works out.
the biggest hurdle to you making changes to your life
Have you not realised yet, how unreasonable is it for people to obsess over food instead of other things? Veganism is a lifestyle and becomes something to obsess about in daily life, due to the lack of calorie dense non-fat foods compared to meat/dairy, and its just a whole lot effort to do anything. Stop selling it as 10 minutes, this liberal behaviour exists with products like Nestlé Maggi 2-minute noodles where nobody ever cooked them in 2 minutes.
I will inch towards making those changes, but not at the cost of revolving my life around veganism lifestyle and habits. This is not an issue with omnivore way of eating, where I can adjust on a gradient how much dairy and meat I eat to cover for vegan macro and micro nutritional deficiencies.
No idea how long it takes to make 1L of almond milk, but if it’s literally blending and straining, that’s not really comparable to cooking or baking where half the enjoyment is in the process.
The one I am tasting right now, is a Thailand import. Oat milk is absolutely the closest of plant milks to replicate milk taste, and I can see why the only difference is due to lactose. Mixing a couple teaspoons of powdered sugar makes it sweet fantastic, and the only issue I see is cost.
It’s generally assumed that oat milk will easily become cheaper than cow milk when mass production takes off. It requires fewer resources (no cows consuming energy) and the process is easy to automate.
But yeah, for now, lactose-intolerant and vegan folks need to pay high prices to kickstart that…
I would also argue about oat protein not being as bioavailable as 4 parts whey 1 part casein protein exists in dairy milk. Casein and whey are twice as bioavailable as plant proteins, which brings in the requirement of pairing up a protein rich meal.
Interestingly enough, there are now non-animal whey milks out there (made via fermentation). It’s worth noting that protein bioavailable numbers are pretty misleading because the way they are done overvalues the availability of animal products and undervalues it for plant-based foods
While multiple strengths characterize the DIAAS, substantial limitations remain, many of which are accentuated in the context of a plant-based dietary pattern. Some of these limitations include a failure to translate differences in nitrogen-to-protein
conversion factors between plant- and animal-based foods, limited representation of commonly consumed plant-based foods within the scoring framework, inadequate recognition of the increased digestibility of commonly consumed heat-treated and processed plant-based foods, its formulation centered on fast-growing animal models rather than humans, and a focus on individual isolated foods vs the food matrix. The DIAAS is also increasingly being used out of context where its application could produce erroneous results such as exercise settings. When investigating protein quality, particularly in a plant-based dietary context, the DIAAS should ideally be avoided.
I would prefer going through the study instead of taking the summary at face value. The study is heavily paywalled, and I will retain the findings of DIAAS and PDCAAS being relevant in case of plant proteins.
I can quote some of the relevant sections here (not supposed to share the whole thing). These are just some of the problems listed with the metrics there’s quite a lot more but this comment is getting too long
The relative protein content, IAA content, and IAA profile of a
given food are required to calculate the DIAAS. The FAO has
not prescribed a specific methodology to determine protein
content for the DIAAS but acknowledged that nitrogen con-
tent can be used to estimate protein content for the PDCAAS
[24]. Food-specific nitrogen-to-protein conversion factors
have been determined for various foods and can be used for
this calculation; however, the FAO does not recommend their
use. Instead, it recommends that the generalized nitrogen-to-
protein conversion factor be utilized [29]. The generalized
factor was set at 6.25 because all proteins were originally
estimated to contain 16% nitrogen; however, this varies great-
ly between proteins [32].
Importantly, estimating protein content using the general-
ized or food-specific factors influences the corresponding
PDCAAS and DIAAS. For example, the food-specific factors
for almonds and soybeans are 5.20 and 5.61, respectively. As
a result, using the generalized factor to calculate their DIAAS
yields 16.8% and 10.2% lower values, respectively, than
when they are calculated based on their food-specific factors.
Conversely, the food-specific factors for skim milk and yogurt
are 6.36 and 6.40, respectively [33]. Accordingly, their
DIAAS are higher when generalized factors are used. In ad-
dition, greater discrepancies exist between conversion factors
for plant foods than animal foods, with recent values ranging
from 5.3 to 5.8 for grains compared with 5.85–6.15 for milk
products [34]. The particular methodology used to calculate
protein content therefore influences the DIAAS of plant and
animal foods differently, decreasing scores for plant-based
sources of protein while increasing scores for animal-based
sources of protein. Due to differences in the ranges of food-
specific factors, use of the generalized factor may also lead to
more inaccurate scores for plant foods than animal foods.
Most literature examining dietary protein consumption and
postprandial muscle protein synthesis (MPS) has focused on
isolated protein sources, as used in the DIASS method, with
limited literature focusing on the influence of whole foods on
MPS [31•]. In most settings, protein is not consumed in isolation. Rather, whole foods are consumed with their intrinsic nutrients exhibiting a synergistic and concerted effect [48]
and can influence the post-exercise MPS [49–51].
Raw foodstuff is used for most DIAAS modeling, whereas
protein-rich plant foods (legumes, grains, etc.) typically un-
dergo heat treatment, processing, or both before human con-
sumption. Common cooking techniques modify proteins, with
heat-treated plant-based proteins demonstrating higher digest-
ibility compared with unprocessed sources [30, 52]. One such
modification relates to the protease inhibitor trypsin, and pro-
cessing treatments have been shown to deactivate as much as
80% of its inhibitory activity in raw flour [52]. Malting and
fermentation processes can also increase the digestibility of
some proteins, likely by bacterial protein pre-digestion and
the lessening of “anti-nutrients” like oxalates, tannins, and
phytic acid [31•, 53]. Their effects are significant, both for
foods and supplements. The fermentation of grain coupled
with other cooking techniques, as is often employed in tradi-
tional cooking methods (e.g., sourdough bread), can increase
the digestibility of grain protein to a level approaching that of
meat [53]. Further, compared with untreated pea seeds, pea
protein concentrate demonstrated 12% higher digestibility,
matching the protein digestibility of casein [52].
Not to rain on the parade, but plant milks are astronomically expensive compared to dairy milk. Plant milks need to become way cheaper than currently 5x the cost for me in India. There is only import, no local making.
Depends on where you live. In some parts of the world, it’s already cheaper. It’s worth noting here that the dairy industry receives massively outsized subsidies compared to other industries all around the world
That surprises me, since I’m told (a large part of) India deems cows holy and over here, the cheapest milk is from cows kept under inhumane conditions…
Cows are also kept under “humane” conditions. Amul is the largest dairy of Asia and the second largest behind Danone globally, and they are a socialist cooperative of women.
Standard pratices in the dairy industry are pretty brutal and really the only way to make anything cheap. For instance, what happens to the male calves after they are born? They are separated from their mothers and then shortly killed because they don’t produce milk
If you want something looking at Indian dairy farms in particular:
https://animalequality.org/blog/2022/03/08/our-global-mission-to-expose-dairys-hidden-cruelty/
To make them cheap, make it yourself.
Making oat milk is a really simple process & to make it more like commercially available products, you can add various other ingredients such as xanthan gum to bind it as well as various things for flavour such as a small amount of cinnamon.
Nobody has the time to do that. I am not going to put that much work (and that is not laziness) in manually making oat milk when I have a million other things to think, manage and do. This mindset will absolutely never help adoption of more vegan practices. I am all for inching towards less meat/animal related foods but it has to be viable, optimal and must not be a nutritional compromise (protein combining with one compact meal is fair).
I agree, it’s not convenient to make at home, but it is possible. I think we need to remove or adjust government funding now that cow milk is no longer the only popular option.
So you have 3 choices there:
It takes 10 minutes to make a batch. Less time than will take you to walk to a shop (see here for a simple recipe/process: https://minimalistbaker.com/make-oat-milk/ )
Pay 5x the cost for plant based products - is your time really worth that much in exchange for the convenience?
Keep drinking disgusting cows milk.
These are the kind of reasons why vegans will never be able to convince people. Go on. That advocacy is surely working.
I’m not vegan. I just don’t drink milk and I’m certainly not advocating veganism because you don’t have the ability to commit to 10 minutes to make your own oat milk so howTF are you going to make such a lifestyle change?
All I did was say how easy it is to make yourself as you complained about the cost and when you bleated about your very busy important lifestyle, laid out your options.
It’s quite obvious the biggest hurdle to you making changes to your life is you so good luck with that and I hope it works out.
Have you not realised yet, how unreasonable is it for people to obsess over food instead of other things? Veganism is a lifestyle and becomes something to obsess about in daily life, due to the lack of calorie dense non-fat foods compared to meat/dairy, and its just a whole lot effort to do anything. Stop selling it as 10 minutes, this liberal behaviour exists with products like Nestlé Maggi 2-minute noodles where nobody ever cooked them in 2 minutes.
I will inch towards making those changes, but not at the cost of revolving my life around veganism lifestyle and habits. This is not an issue with omnivore way of eating, where I can adjust on a gradient how much dairy and meat I eat to cover for vegan macro and micro nutritional deficiencies.
It’s literally putting stuff in a blender and then straining. with your reasoning, why even bother baking or cooking?
Because I do not want to cook up another thing besides my meals? Because I want to put my brain towards other things?
No idea how long it takes to make 1L of almond milk, but if it’s literally blending and straining, that’s not really comparable to cooking or baking where half the enjoyment is in the process.
What a scam. Here in Germany it’s more expensive but not by much
The one I am tasting right now, is a Thailand import. Oat milk is absolutely the closest of plant milks to replicate milk taste, and I can see why the only difference is due to lactose. Mixing a couple teaspoons of powdered sugar makes it sweet fantastic, and the only issue I see is cost.
It’s generally assumed that oat milk will easily become cheaper than cow milk when mass production takes off. It requires fewer resources (no cows consuming energy) and the process is easy to automate.
But yeah, for now, lactose-intolerant and vegan folks need to pay high prices to kickstart that…
I would also argue about oat protein not being as bioavailable as 4 parts whey 1 part casein protein exists in dairy milk. Casein and whey are twice as bioavailable as plant proteins, which brings in the requirement of pairing up a protein rich meal.
Interestingly enough, there are now non-animal whey milks out there (made via fermentation). It’s worth noting that protein bioavailable numbers are pretty misleading because the way they are done overvalues the availability of animal products and undervalues it for plant-based foods
(emphasis mine)
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s13668-020-00348-8.pdf
I would prefer going through the study instead of taking the summary at face value. The study is heavily paywalled, and I will retain the findings of DIAAS and PDCAAS being relevant in case of plant proteins.
I can quote some of the relevant sections here (not supposed to share the whole thing). These are just some of the problems listed with the metrics there’s quite a lot more but this comment is getting too long
Appreciated. I want to see more studies over time to form a position on our current understanding of the food protein sciences.