only fair enough, I remember when they made the US and UK do this after killing hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq
4.5 Million but yeah, glad that the USA and the UK got sanctioned after leading such a genocidal war. This restores my faith in the rules based order.
Can we please stop overusing the word genocide
Sorry, you’re right. In the absence of specific genocidal intent, the US and UK are only guilty of crimes against humanity, the crime of aggression, and various sundry war crimes.
Yes, correct. Now Saddam Hussein on the other hand…
Edit: oh you’re one of the hexbear people, jesus you people are insufferable
I agree with you and you resort to whataboutism in response. Somehow I’m the insufferable one?
Yikes.
Literally justifying the Iraq war while acting like we’re the assholes here, right
Saddam Hussein didn’t literally genocide kurdish people? Not saying that justifies a country halfway across the world to brutally occupy them, but it’s not like that didn’t happen.
Holy fucking shit.
After hand wringing the word in context of the US killing millions of people.
And we’re insufferable.
He did. He was also supported by the CIA during his times as a torturer of communists and as a dictator launching gas attacks.
Yes, but that is not a valid reason to justify the war because an autonomous Kurdish zone had already been set up after the Anfal in 1992. The only way Iraqi troops got in there is when the KDP invited them in during the Kurdish Civil War from 1994-7. Then once that was mediated and the KRG was split into two the Iraqi Army was no longer allowed in. The only real change 2003 brought was the legalising and formal institutionalisation of the KRG such that foreign capital was more willing to invest in it (encouraged, in fact, as the US tried to rebuild Iraq to stabilise things) and it had a big shiny “legal” sticker on it. The realities on the ground didn’t change though, especially as the constitutional articles surrounding referendums on Kirkuk and other disputed areas never came to fruition.
So by 2003 the Kurdish Question in Iraq had not been solved, but it had certainly been pacified in intensity, because a de facto independent KRG already existed!
I get what you’re saying, though. Yes, Saddam was an abhorrent and awful leader who was a genocidaire. However, the war was still an illegal catastrophe based on falsehoods that made things drastically worse for the Iraqi people. It is unjustifiable even when you take Saddam’s terrible-ness into account.
Yeah killing millions of people was totally worth getting one man!
Now let’s bomb Washington DC to rubble and kill your family so we can get to Bush, the even bigger war criminal.
Did I say I think we should have invaded Iraq and Afghanistan?
Nah you just pearl clutched when we called Western Powers bad names.
I’m loosely in favor of restricting the use of the word genocide to when it’s definitionally appropriate myself, but that’s in the context of effective communication and clarity. So long as “genocide” is going to be used exclusively to refer to US State Department desginated enemies only, then it’s perfectly reasonable to liken the US/France/UK’s horrific foreign interventions genocide as well. Western interventions, both formal and clandestine, have killed many more than anyone else those imperialist fucks have accused of the word, so in the interest of showing just how absurd their usage is yes, we should and can call Western powers genocidal too.
I mean I do agree with you (as a genocide studies scholar in training, God willing!), but I think your view of the US as just a clumsy, misguided oaf doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is not accurate. It was never the case that the US tried to build a democratic government and failed-from the very start the US instilled Bremer (that idiot) as a dictator; he openly restricted freedom of the press, freedom of speech and association, and had people critical of the CPA arrested. Then afterwards the US tried to interfere in the elections to support Allawi but failed miserably. The CIA and the US embassy has always had a huge role in the picking of Iraqi Prime Ministers and other ministers and has never stopped quashing Iraqi self-determination and democratic will. Just look at what they supported Maliki through!
Thank you for your well informed comment, the whole thing was indeed a clusterfuck and you know more than me. What are you doing on that godforsaken instance?
I am a socialist and it is nice to be among socialists, put simply. I disagree with plenty of them on many issues but honestly I have not found people rude or mean to me-indeed, even less so than on liberal forums e.g., reddit. Plus there is an energetic solidarity and support for marginalised ppl (I am disabled + poor + mentally ill) that you do not get in most communities because I feel they understand more so the structural roots behind these marginalisations (since they are socialists!).
Also I was on hexbear since the start (the migration from /r/cth to chapo.chat) and I don’t really know what Lemmy is lol.
Post shit get hit. We welcome informed folks, well meaning curious questions, and fellow travelers with open arms. Sanctimonious liberals get the hog.
Also you: https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/1081955
When you say it like that sure, except they also deny the Uyghur genocide and ignore the fact that China has their internet walled off and heavily censored/policed.
Basically they’re so pro-communism that they looped back around and are now pro-fascists and drink the Kool aid. Not to mention the fact that China is only communist in name lol
Monday: china is fascist
Tuesday: china is communist
Wednesday: china is communist in name only
Thursday: china is corporatist
Friday: china is state capitalist
Saturday: china is just authoritarian
Sunday: china is just totalitarian
Yes this is me, thank you for advertising my accurate comment. China is indeed targeting and concentrating minorities into camps. Words have meanings.
Does not seem like words have meanings. All the nuance in your tank is reserved for the constant America-led warmongering in the middle east with a death toll in millions, many more displaced, and known torture sites like Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and god known how many more black sites. Meanwhile the Uyghur are unequivocally being genocided despite ZERO CONFIRMED CASUALTIES four years into the news cycle. So your litmus test for genocide seems to be
despite the emphasis on words having meaning.astral_avacado said elsewhere that the Iraq Invasion was just “misguided” so its definitely a case of
with how they decide what is and isn’t a genocide.
Calling that genocide is holocaust denial.
Stop hiding behind pathetic labels, you are in bed with fascists.
The UN disagrees with you
Lmao good one
lets call it unsolicited special underage child pregnancy operation
This is basically word for word what I was going to post.
You’re not wrong, but just because the USA and UK got away with it doesn’t mean we should continue to let others get away with it. We can’t go back in time and fix it but we’ve got to start somewhere.
Can you even manage in a fever dream to think that this would set a precedent that would result in the US ever getting punished?
Punished for what? Throwing money and military support towards everyone when they need it? Oh, that. Right. As always, hating the USA is what the cool kids do these days. Until they need taxpayer money or military support. I’d love to see us cut off every ounce of support we give to other nations and see how that works out.
I’d love to see us cut off every ounce of support we give to other nations and see how that works out.
Me too! It would be an incredible turn of events that would massively benefit the world. Could you throw in removing the blockades on Cuba and the DPRK and others while you are at it?
I’d love to see us cut off every ounce of support we give to other nations and see how that works out.
Punished for what?
COOL. GO AHEAD.
Lmao, the US, simultaneously the strongest and coolest country in the world and a cucked nation that can be bullied by even the smallest african country into giving away free protection.
Boring bullshitAre you guys from hexbear all 14 or something? I see a bunch of you posting infantile memes in response to criticism.
they also assume everyone else is from the US and heartily supports imperialism somehow
The three year long echo chamber did wonders it seems
What support do you think you give? The “support” you give is either A) The cost of running your own propaganda, and paying target-nation actors. B) Weapons you buy from your own capitalists. C) Bribes in exchange for target-nation puppets to exploit their own people for the benefit of your capitalists. There is no fourth category.
The fourth category should be: none of the above.
it’s just a coincidence that this stuff only ever starts with our state enemies huh? only the bad countries get sanctioned for doing the same things we/our allies do. only Russia has to compete with neutral flags. only African leaders get prosecuted in the ICC.
it’s all nonsense used to manufacture consent for war and military spending
“Not arresting this black man for possession of 0.01 grams of weed isn’t going to go back in time and punish all those white guys we let go despite possessing much more weed. Cuff him, boys.”
Russia competes with neutral flags because they can’t stop doping. It has nothing to do with us vs them. They literally can’t stop cheating.
every single athlete at the olympics is doping
Source?
I’ve tasted all their piss and it all tastes the same.
Most honest hexbear enjoyer
Common sense?
Have you played sports before? Even at the high school level teenagers are pumping their body full of steriods. I saw them do it myself, I’ve heard the stories from my friends who played rugby. Just look at top high school rugby or american football teams physiques, or at the cardio capacity of teenage track and field athletes. You really think that level is attainable without performance enhancing drugs, at such a widespread level? You really think that stops once these athletes become adults? How about the fact that all of Usain Bolt’s competition got caught doping? You can’t be this gullible. Seriously, read the article I’ve linked below.
https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/bernstein-usain-bolt-is-probably-doping-and-you-know-it/
Russia’s sin here was official state involvement, not doping. As long as you pass the drug tests, nothing matters. Remember that Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test. Does that mean he’s a clean athlete? Of course not, and neither was any of his competition. The same applies to the Olympics, the same applies to almost all competitive sports.
So no proof? That’s what I figured.
I did play sports. None of us took anything.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
There is nothing that makes cycling significantly different from any other sport in terms of the advantages of doping, the testing for it, or the means of evasion.
I didn’t realize that list contained every cyclist and Olympian.
This mentality is why we should crack down harder, not softer. Cheating is eroding the public’s confidence in fair competition.
Removed by mod
The United States are the GOATs of state sponsored and planned doping at the Olympics. Many of the involved doctors have talked about it in the decades since the '84 Olympics.
Why are we letting the people responsible for Iraq and Afghanistans current state get away with it? Like if the US wants to arrest a war criminal Bush and Cheney are right there. Same for Blair, or Harper, or any of the other architects of the invasions.
Because bourgeoisie law does three things. Firstly it protects capital against individuals. Secondly it protects itself against individuals so it can maintain “order”. Finally, it prevents capital against itself, to prevent it devouring itself in competition or sucking hard enough to create a revolutionary populace. Protecting individuals against each other or against capital is not the purpose of law enforcement, much less protecting people from war criminals. (Btw if anyone can find the parenti lecture this was based off, please tell me because i forget)
I’m not saying they should get away with it, I’m just saying that we shouldn’t let Russia get away with it because the United States and the UK got away with it. It’s like the Boomer argument that it’s not fair to them for student loans to be forgiven because they had to pay.
Would you support a policy of student loan forgiveness for only white people?
What kind of stupid ass comment is this?
It’s not your standard stupidity, it’s Hexbear Premium Brand Stupidity.
deleted by creator
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Do you not understand why I said that? I would not support student loan forgiveness only for white people because, while I like student loan forgiveness, I can recognize that such a program would ultimately just be in the interest of white supremacy. I wouldn’t pull the disingenuous liberal line of “you’ve gotta start somewhere” as though the policy was tethered to some imaginary future state that it is nominally more similar to but practically much further from.
Likewise, saying “well, at least by holding Belarus to account some countries will be held to account, which gets us closer to all countries being held to account!” is absurd. It promotes western dominance, not the abstract idea of “holding countries to account”. Striking only one side saying that it’s closer to both sides being struck than striking zero sides would be is sophistry.
I’m not sure where in the world you live, but for myself, I’m in a western country. It would be far more easy for my country to hold the architects of the Afghanistan invasion to account than Putin. The fact that my government doesn’t indicates that all the talk of punishing Russia has nothing to do with punishing aggression, it’s just about punishing a rival
It’s actually far easier to hold putin to account than western leaders - the western hegemony is hardly going to turn on itself, but it can easily send arms to Ukraine.
That this arming of ukraine is for completely self interested reasons doesn’t mean it also has the side effect of helping a country fight tyranny. A good thing done for bad reasons can still be a good thing.
Also, if the western countries will get paid for the help afterwards, that’d be an almost free win
You’re trying to say by implication that the ship has sailed on Bush and Obama, but they’re still alive. The USA Olympics team is still around. Even if you should’ve banned them in 1890 doesn’t mean you still can’t. They haven’t apologised, paid reparations, or ceased any of their human rights violating projects.
Why are we letting China get away with it? Why are we letting Saudi Arabia get away with it? The IOC is a toaster and it’s like you’re asking it to make you a whole roast dinner. It can’t even make toast properly…
I’m not asking for anything, I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy in calling for punishing Russia for war crimes when in every respect the US and her vassals have committed and are committing orders of magnitude more violence in the last couple decades
*his. Come on, the US is not a motherland, it’s a fatherland.
This is spiraling into whataboutism and I’m disengaging. Have a nice day!
You realise by targetting an official enemy state of the most powerful of the lot, we’re essentially rewarding them? And making them more powerful on the world stage? So a fixation on CN and RU is inherently going to become counter-productive to goals of stability and human development etc.
“Just because we let the world’s most prolific serial killer get away with it doesnt mean he shouldnt be allowed to keep murdering if he pinky swears his victims really deserve it this time.”
We can’t go back in time and fix it but we’ve got to start somewhere.
We are in total agreement here, and we can start by seizing the levers of power, purging the government of capitalists, withdrawing all troops from everywhere and using them for reforestation work, dismantling the IMF, paying reparations to every country we’ve victimized, and putting every fossil fuel executive and lobbyist against the wall for their omnicidal crimes against all terrestrial life.
Damn this sounds great to me. When do we start?
but we’ve got to start somewhere.
Somehow we always seem to be starting with US geopolitical enemies, never the US itself, despite literal centuries of heinous crimes.
Curious how that works.
Holy fuck the sarcasm lol
The nazis hosted the olympics, no imperialist war has ever stopped the olympics from letting someone compete. Even in the worst possible interpretation of Russia’s actions in Ukraine, barring them from the Olympics for it would be an entirely new precedent.
The last several Olympics haven’t they competed under a different flag because all the cheating they keep getting caught for? Sure, everyone knows they’re Russian, but it wasn’t the Russian flag or anthem. They competed as the Russian Olympic Committee.
All true. None of it related to human rights abuses or wars, which the IOC has typically not cared much about.
Russia is a fascist state. You are a fascist for supporting it.
Y’all will take the most lukewarm, neutral, fair takes on topics related to this issue and call it “support for Russia” is incredible. |
Nowhere, anywhere in op’s comment did she say that she supports Russia.
Ukraine is a fascist state. You are a fascist for supporting it.
It feels weird to be the one to break this to you, but the nazis are widely considered to be fascists too. Some would say they were even a lil bit worse than Russia on the goosestepping front.
Lol but western athletes aren’t fascists for not boycotting the event that Russia participating in? Seems like they have more power and influence than an internet poster
do u support ukraine
Forget neutral flags, they should be banned. Heck, Russia should be banned for doping, regardless of the war.
I have to wonder if Russia has ever really won a medal without cheating?
They’ve been caught cheating at the paralympics also. What’s next, the special olympics?
Removed by mod
You really enjoy being an asshole online, don’tcha? How cute.
Removed by mod
This would only be acceptable if Ukraine were also banned
Good lord, the comments on that article. I guess I shouldn’t expect any better from RT, but man it does really make me sad that so many people are happy living in a fantasy world where Ukrainians are the bad guys in this conflict.
If you think that’s bad you really don’t want to look at what’s goin on in Palestine.
OK and? How many Europeans have died in the said ‘conflict’? Russia has declared war against Europe and will not stop until the last European is dead.
A lot of Palestinians died in that conflict. And they are, surprisingly, people too.
I think this is a bad faith reading of the other comment. Perhaps Warrior of Ukraine meant that they’re European, and as such is more emotionally and intellectually invested in the war in Ukraine than in the ongoing conflict of non-Europeans (which you rightly identified as “people too”, of course) in Palestine/Israel.
And I think I absolutely correctly read “Who cares about those people, they’re not Europeans”, and the quotes about the word conflict were just a cherry on top. The correct answer to whatabout is not “we should only care about my issue because I am important and you are less than that”.
I didn’t see that intention. Perhaps u/JackBruh@lemm.ee would come back and clarify his intent. Otherwise, I largely agree with you. Whataboutism makes it as if when you care about one thing, you have to care about every thing, but no one person can fix every thing. It makes cynics of us all
Russia has declared war against Europe and will not stop until the last European is dead.
Wow this is news to me when did this happen
Plans have been discovered that Russia intended to invade other countries including Moldova and the other surrounding eastern European countries once they were done with Ukraine. Putin had no plans to stop his conquest, he wants to rebuild the Soviet Union.
This. Ukraine is the last bastion of freedom and humanity keeping the barbarians from invading Europe. We already saw what the Soviets did to Europe and the Russians are trying to do that again.
Racism
Whataboutism
That is going to require them to train their military or something. So I’m guessing it might be easier for them to just wait a couple of thousand years until all of Europe is underwater as it will be faster.
Good. I hope to see the EU and the country of “Ukraine” removed from the map. The world will know peace further than it does now if Russia were able to do that
Ukraine is the bad guy as they are fascist dictators who will (hopefully) be a former country in the future
Pretty sure invading another country for their natural resources doesn’t make you the good guys, no matter what excuse your country invents to justify their actions.
If Ukraine had not been threatening Russia by allowing NATO in, might not be an issue. Ukraine can continue to lose and I will enjoy the sight. Keep defending losing fascists
Seek mental help.
Says the literal Nazi-defended
Finally, some dignity and respect for human rights at the Olympics.
walks past barricade that hides homeless people
Every Olympics (and world cup) presages the mass brutalization of vulnerable people, and I gotta wonder: do people really care that much about shotput?
Putting a lot of trust in some notion of integrity on noted good organisation, the IOC, here
Ukraine should perform under the flag of Bandera
the red and black one deeply associated with the far right, you mean?
The joke is that that represents their awful state ideology
correct, if a state allows for the hosting of fascism it is inheritly fascist.
Fun fact: flag, in Spanish, means “bandera”.
I mean, the thing all people in this thread probably can agree on is that athletes should perform under some kind of flag. Common ground and all.
It’s the etymology of that name actually, italian word for flag (also bandera) got adopted in many slavic countries.
Lmao at whoever downvoted you. Do they disagree? Show your face coward!
Do you realise that upvotes and downvotes are public, and you can see who upvoted and downvoted something?
They’re visible in Kbin’s UI, but not Lemmy’s.
I was just shit posting. I’ve read that it’s logged, but I’m not aware of where I would find this if it is publicly available.
deleted by creator
For anyone who’s worried when they see RT, Yahoo has this from Reuters: https://sports.yahoo.com/paris-olympics-ukraine-torn-over-132843398.html
Content essentially the same, RT has more info about Moscow’s reactions, Yahoo more about Ukraine.
Removed by mod
I mean, that’s why I posted what I posted?
All news is propaganda.
No.
Is that a big bargaining chip or something? The presence of the Ukrainian Olympic team?
No serious athlete will want mickey mouse medals if the real competition isn’t there.
I mean, having Ukraine boycott the Olympics isn’t a great look for the Olympics.
The IOC is not a great look for the Olympics. The organisation is cancerous, just like FIFA
Removed by mod
Yeah because the Olympic committee are a bunch of idiots. They keep saying that the Olympics are not political, while being obviously political.
Allowing China to host was a political decision. It showed support for China, no matter how much the Olympic committee said it didn’t.
Morons the lot of them.
Ukraine having a normal one
The original Olympic truce required everyone to lay down their arms. It would go against the spirit to selectively enforce this. Not that the IOC actually cares about the legacy of the games, they tried to remove wrestling at one point.
Doesn’t Russia already perform under neutral flags because of the doping?
They should just be banned entirely. How many doping scandals does it take? The presence of their athletes is all Russia cares about. They’ll Photoshop in some flags and parade it around state TV.
I don’t think that’s fair to the athletes. They have all worked super hard to make it to the olympics and they shouldn’t be banned because of their birthplace.
I don’t think it’s fair to the other athletes who also worked super hard to make it to the Olympics. It’s not a prestigious competition if it’s full of cheaters.
They are not allowed to represent their birthplace because the birthplace actively financing and supporting systematic doping. That is not the same as they are being banned.
I have no understanding for why you want to represent that.
Why should doping even be illegal? You sound a lot like chuds talking about trans athletes
Competition will never be perfectly fair, Michael Phelps is a genetic freak who’s just better at swimming than most people due to his insane lung capacity but he’s still allowed to compete
Doping is illegal because it represents a serious risk to the health of athletes to get into a PED arms race
To be fair doping is literally cheating and causing further damage to already exploited athletes, where as being trans just makes you cool as hell
Countries and contestants have all agreed that doping is not allowed. If you promise something and have no intention to keep the promise you are in fact a liar.
There has been, and probably still is, a government funded doping program in Russia. So not only have their contestants been proved to be cheaters, Russia has been caught sponsoring it all too.
So while you like to derail this discussion towards on whether doping should be allowed or not it still doesn’t change the fact that Russia actively promoted cheating.
deleted by creator
We should also ban Russian cats from Cat Beauty Pageants while we’re at it because fuck them cats.
All countries use doping, some are better to hide it.
Source?
No source, but past evidence of scandals ( 100 mt quite eveery record by doped athletes ). Some athletes are breeded like cattles ( see the history of a famous chinese basketball player )
Now we’re up to $900 per US household for this Ukraine stuff. Let’s throw a few more bucks at it to buy flags. Great use of taxpayer dollars. Sure, Jan.
Most of which are armament that the US government already had in its arsenal. You’ve spent the money and now those missiles are actually in use instead of being hold in storage. I’m actually more interested in that 900 USD amount, where did you read or hear that exact number?
Who said I preferred it killing people half way across the world instead of rotting in storage
- Missiles being used to kill people in an endless stalemate is actually worse than them sitting in a box
- The people sending those missiles to Ukraine are going to buy more to replace them
- They’re also going to charge Ukraine for the missiles and insist the country sell off state assets for pennies on the dollar to make payments
Maybe it’s high time to overhaul that thinking and stop having a ridiculous military budget.
Holy shit, it’s so high because it gets used constantly.
You’re literally here supporting the use of it
Liberal thinkers are epic
I don’t know how this brain genius talking point got so popular.
So things don’t cost money when you already spent money on them? …You don’t think those stocks are going to be replenished having been depleted?
Wonder why they never apply that logic to housing…
Then it suddenly costs money!
Because it has a point, albeit not perfect. Wouldn’t you rather the US not have a ridiculously big military budget and can divert spending to, say, education and healthcare?
Sure, it’s great that the US arsenal can obliterate any country in the world should the political powers will it, but this is not the best version of the world, honestly. As you said, it’s your money. Are you okay with it?
Sure, it’s great that the US arsenal can obliterate any country in the world should the political powers will it
Wouldn’t you rather the US not have a ridiculously big military budget and can divert spending to, say, education and healthcare?
Yes? But this seems like a non sequitur.
You see, we will reduce our military budget by using more weapons. This makes sense in the liberal mind
And now we have to replenish those arsenals… they absolutely will be replenished.
Like, if you give all the food in your cupboard to someone, no one would consider that “free”. You have to buy more food!
This argument seems so foolish I can hardly believe anyone actually thinks this way.
I’d rather the companies in my country stop selling those armaments to the US, actually. Maybe this is a good time to review your military budget and ask your government why you have it in the first place?
The same imperial government that lied to its people and provoked a land war in Europe?
The same one you’re legitimizing in fueling that conflict by implying it’s free?
Yeah let me call up my boy Biden and tell him no more bombs while you point and laugh at me from behind
This conflict has the potential to cause real change in Russia. We’re talking about potentially getting rid of Putin’s regime and it’s being done without sending any of our troops to die. The help Ukraine is getting isn’t charity, look at the bigger picture.
without sending any of our troops to die
what about all the people from other countriesIf foreigners are people then why can’t they vote in our elections?
Checkmate tankie.
Never mind all the US vets that died over there lmfao
This person just outing themself as craving the sending of Ukrainians into the fucking meatgrinder. The sheer disregard for human life is disgusting
If Putin is overthrown the people most likely to overthrow him are hardliners who think he’s being a cuck by not immediately nuking Kiev and Washington.
So it’s a good thing that there’s basically zero indication of major internal political stability in Russia. Even the Wagner “coup” only asked for Shoigu and Gerasimov to be removed, not Putin.
Why are they sending hundreds of thousands of working class people of both Ukraine, Russia and third countries to kill each other then, if it’s really about the governments’ wrongdoings?
Why not support revolutionaries within Russia, helping the Russians to dispose of their own government? Why does NATO have to be involved as an actor in the first place? Why do workers have to murder each other on front lines? The governments’ and militaries’ support should be constrained strictly to humanitarian support and help, not weapons.
Both governments and their national capital are the enemy. It is a war between two economies over geopolitical control over Ukraine, fought by and written in blood of people who don’t profit from either side of the war. No Ukrainian soldier or Russian soldier wins at the end of the day. Whichever side wins, it is going to end in a bloodbath and further oppression. Sure, a Russian win would be worse in the long run, but the Ukrainian government and NATO countries ain’t no saints either, and is certainly not the side I would like to die for.
GOOD postThough I personally don’t know who of the two evils would be the worse win in the long run, yes, agreed, very much this.
Russia would certainly impose its oppressive social stances on the territory including its homophobia, sexism, racism, patriarchal order, lack of freedom of press and so on. This would probably not be as bad under a NATO-aligned European government (although the West has been known to bring fascists to power if necessary), which uses its slight edge in progressivism as a useful propaganda shield.
Both would however use it as a geopolitical pressure point for further aggression, stationing nuclear weapons, economically colonize the war-torn ruins by “helping rebuild”, and subduing the local population and labor rights. Zelensky disbanded unions and the right to strike, abolished gay marriage for the duration of the war to prevent gay refugees from taking their husbands with them, banned socialist movements and is draconic against draft dodgers and peace activists (even those without Russian ties). The Ukrainian army stations troops in civilian places to hide them, endangering their own people, incorporate and welcome neo-nazis into their military as part of some kind of popular front, and use banned weapons. On the other side, Russia does all of these too and commits war crimes left and right, so it is not like they are any more welcome in my eyes.
Either outcome would (in the long term) be worse for the people of Ukraine, Russia, the rest of Europe and probably the world. The war would not stop after Ukraine.
As long as our economy is steered by the whims of wealthy people seeking to maximize their profits and not by any democratic process, we will have these issues over and over again as at some point the only direction the economy could grow is into other countries. It’s no coincidence that China and Russia are the “enemies” of the West when they are the two biggest economies that mainly act in competition to the Western economies. For instance, Amazon would literally kill to get the entire Chinese market, let alone all other American multinationals. And with the power that money and capital has, a war is possible to incite based on that desire to expand to “enemy countries”. Same with the Chinese and Russian economies. Tencent and Gazprom would love to control their respective Western markets.
good thoughtful post
Absolutely fair point, you may well be right. I pretty much agree on all points.
You do realize that America already overthrew Russia’s government once, and that is how Putin came to be in the first place, right? You expect cycle #2 to go better?
Lmao. I’m sure they’ll overthrow the government, just like the Americans did to their own government after invading Vietnam and Iraq. Have you seen what the Russian government is doing to mild protestors? Black bagged, sent off to who knows where, doing who knows what. It’s Kent State by like 500x. This isn’t 1980s USSR. The people there support Putin. And those who don’t and protest are still denounced by the west for not doing enough, as if westerners have ever succeeded in holding their governments accountable.
The most realistic outcome is that Putin resigns in disgrace and 20 years later they make shoot and cry movies about Russian soldiers in Ukraine. And then they’ll rehabilitate Putin as a strong leader anyway.
We’re talking about potentially getting rid of Putin’s regime and it’s being done without sending any of our troops to die.
The people surrounding Putin who are most likely to replace him are hardliners who think Kiev should be glassed. Part of the motivation behind the Wagner mutiny is Prigo thinking Shoigu isn’t going hard enough in Ukraine. Contrary to liberal bots who only listen to what CNN tells them, it’s good for everyone involved that the Wagner mutiny was completely deflated. There wouldn’t be much of a Ukraine left if Prigo was in charge, and Prigo is not the only one.
Putin has more support than ever…
For gods sake try to imagine this from a Russian perspective. NATO bombs are killing their people.
Like, seriously, imagine how your average American would react to this. Treat the Russians as human for one fucking second.
They are not going to fucking blame Putin for that. They will blame NATO!!!
This conflict has the potential to cause real change in Russia
time is a flat circle
This is the most important proxy war of our lifetime!
We are killing the Russians to help the Russians
The help Ukraine is getting will go to nill when these fascists finally lose
Once again a westoid proves Ukrainian lives don’t matter to them.
This Ukraine stuff is a war where 100.000 war crimes were reported, tens of thousands of civilians were killed raped and tortured, where hundreds of thousands of people lost their house.
I wouldn’t say it’s $900 per household because
- It’s from the defense federal budget, that you would’ve spent anyways
- The aid packages, expressed in dollars, are the sum of the value of the equipment sent to Ukraine, in vast majority which US already had
- The defence budget is there to be able to stand against the strongest adversaries: China and Russia. USA basically annihilated one of their enemies’ army without a single drop of blood.
You must be joking, 100K war crimes??? 10K rapes??? This isn’t Rwanda.
You haven’t heard of hyperbole, clearly. But it’s not far from the truth. Russia commits war crimes every day. It’s all their military is good for. They can’t fight a real force, so they blow up and murder civilians instead. To claim otherwise is misinformed at best, actively dishonest at worst.
Ok, Jen! 😂 I guess those leopards and bradleys blew up by themselves…
Oh, Jen 🤣 those kindergartens blew up by themselves
You mean the one that Ukrainian Mi-17 fell on to? Or the one hit by an AD Ukrainian missile? 🤷🏼
The government of Ukraine reports 103.325 war crimes, 9444 killed civilians, 16940 injured civilians. (war.ukraine.ua). You may legitimately considered these numbers inflated by the Ukrainian government, for this reason I can redirect you to the Wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine containing plentiful of references and sources.
Are you genuinely going to believe numbers given by literal Nazis?
Why do you think the Ukrainians are Nazi? You’re clearly failing to understand that having a Nazi problem (like any country) does not imply the government is Nazi. You have seen images of men with their tattooed arms right? How does it mean that the government is Nazi? It’s Kremlin’s propaganda to discredit Ukrainians. Go see the polls and see how many far-right parties got (2%).
I linked a Wikipedia page, so there’s no need to “believe” as the war crimes are documented.
Now look at who’s committing genocide, deportations and tortures.
They let Nazis in the government through the Azov are in the military and allow Nazis in the military. That is the government.
And that Wikipedia article has absolutely shit sources so it should only be laughed at
Go Ukraine, but it’s official, this worldnews community has become ragebait, like the original one :/
It’s particularly upsetting because lemmy.ml is a major instance. IMO, moderation in this c/ is infrequent and underwhelming. I don’t mean to hang the mods out to dry; it would take a big team to wade through this effluent and tame the trolls. The hostile “Here comes the Reddit refugees” and “OMG Tankie brigade” shit is just the easy stuff. A rule on lazy whataboutism would help the signal/noise ratio as well. This post is from RT, about Ukraine/Russia/Belarus but the biggest thread in here is rehashing the Iraq occupation. Can we just discuss the original topic? Is that so hard?
“My post is about black crime, stop mentioning other things like white crime. Yes, I only post about black crime, are you trying to say black people never commit crime? That they should be allowed to commit crime? Thought so.”
Sometimes bringing up context is important for discussing issues that some people would like to keep in a vacuum. The US competing at those same Olympic games under no penalty would be fucked up and makes it obvious that if Belarus was penalized here, it would be due to western politicking and nothing else (Russia already has the doping issue, so idk about that one)
No, you’re not helping. At all. It’s flamebait that can only derail the topic and turn into a circle jerk or verbal fistfight.
Here’s an example that may help: Why is China allowed to participate in the Olympics despite their genocides and brutal crackdowns? Why the double standard?
See? You’re demonstrating my point, it’s not just indifferent, it has a motive.
Though I don’t think you’re helping since Russia did invade while China is doing zero genocides.
I’m sure china is rounding up its citizens and putting them into reeducation camps based on their ethnicity and religious beliefs for reasons other than ethnic cleansing.
Being left wing doesn’t mean you absolutely must support china, especially since a lot of chinese policies are decidedly right wing and almost overwhelmingly authoritarian.
Like nost other “communist” parties in power before them, the CCP is populated mostly by self interested bourgeois that coopted the revolution and pursued a path of oppression against its own people.
Authoritarians gonna authoritate, who’d have guessed.
If you can’t even get the party’s name correct then you have no room to talk on them
Saved. Thanks for the comprehensive resource. Now, if only everyone was eager to read before slandering other countries online… Not that China is a perfect utopia, but simply gobbling whatever information comes to the public by media that have an interest in defending “the West” is the quickest path to have your consent manufactured.
genocides
didn’t know the CIA dropped a new one
This post is from RT, about Ukraine/Russia/Belarus but the biggest thread in here is rehashing the Iraq occupation.
the ‘punishment’ of russia is night and day to what we saw happen to the US and its western allies after the invasion of iraq. you can go and cry about ‘whataboutism’ as much as you’d like, but those of us who live in a world not shrouded by a willful amnesia of a past historical events can see the gross display of hypocrisy for what it is—namely a confirmation by the western world that some victims (of war) are worth more than others
Can we just discuss the original topic? Is that so hard?
When your entire schtick is anti-westernism then yeah it is that hard. I really don’t mind the comrades at lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml, they generate some thought provoking content at times. However their blind, predictable, and endlessly repeated talking points are tiresome in the same way that an invasion of Fox News viewers would be.
Another centerist attempting to equivicate the left who wants civil rights for all to the right who want to melt anyone the left advocates civil rights for. Yes, your rainbow capitalism will certainly save this planet.
This post is from RT, about Ukraine/Russia/Belarus but the biggest thread in here is rehashing the Iraq occupation. Can we just discuss the original topic? Is that so hard?
This is why so many instances defederate from hexbear, they do this in every comment section. Just turn it into whataboutism against the US, and add nothing to the topic that’s actually being discussed by the article. They’re basically lemmygrad but brigade comment sections more often.
Removed by mod
Brigading is their entire purpose for existence on this site, they actively plot to harass and invade other instances to deny people a platform and talk about where to spread their “forces” next. They were taking bets on where they’ll be defederated next. They were never on this platform to participate in good faith.
Instances defederate from hexbear because of emoji spam more than anything else.
Defederation because of political views is, frankly, dangerous for democracy.
This isn’t about their political views in particular, this is about them brigading comment sections and derailing from the original topic and shouting down anybody who disagrees.
Defederation because of political views is, frankly, dangerous for democracy.
What? This is such a ridiculous claim I’m not even sure where to start. Federation does not equal democracy, and defederation from a shitty spammy instance has zero impact on democracy.
And also don’t forget the mass spam of oversized emojis and pictures of pigs shitting.
Democracy is built on discourse of opposing views. If we just censor all opposing views, then what the fuck is even the point?
Defederation is not censorship. All it means is that nobody on that instance wants to hear your bullshit, and are showing you the door. You’re able to make an account on another federated instance if you wanted to hear those vitriolic, harmful people.
Political views aren’t like football teams or favorite colors. Not all political views are valid, should be protected or accepted. If there are people who want to restrict gay marriage because they find gay people disgusting, and on the other hand people who want to leave gay people in peace, why would any sane society tolerate both views?
The democratic obsession with protecting violence, hate and bigotry under the guise of “just an opposing opinion” is infuriating. I don’t think people of opposing views should have the right to argue for them. I want them to stop having those opinions or be removed. Politics isn’t something you can agree to disagree on, it’s a permanent struggle of life and death, poverty and wealth, peace and war. It’s not something I want to stay civil over.
Yet, people with these political views do exist in our society. We need to find a way to integrate them into society, not isolate them.
There’s about as much discourse here as rival football hooligans having it out in the streets. A lot of violence but it doesn’t really change the score. What’s the point of talking when no one’s listening?
Re: “dangerous for democracy”. That’s a little hyperbolic, don’t ya think?
I don’t support defederation. I think the calls for defederation strictly arise from political clashes that boil out of control and people that don’t remember the Internet-that-was, before Reddit. “Free speech absolutist” wasn’t a thing because no one pictured their little forum as mattering that much. Forum moderation wasn’t about enforcing a specific world view or preserving an echo chamber, it was about preserving civil discourse. And since I’m typing this out I might as well add that I think if I was to dust off an early 90’s or 2000’s mod hat, I’d do the following:
- Referring to other commenters as reddit refugee/hexbear/liberal/grad/imperialist/shill/anti-westerner 's is a 3 day ban
- Bringing up the Iraq War, Tienanmen Sq, etc is a 3 day ban. Not some conspiracy to bury the truth. It’s because everyone’s friggin’ heard it already and we definitely don’t need more of it.
- Lazy whataboutism is a 1 day ban. This is vaguely defined for a purposeful chilling effect.
- War Is Bad. When not the topic of the article, fantasizing about a US-Ruso conflict/popular uprising/Taiwan invasion/WW3 is a 1 day ban.
What do people want this place to be? A place where all sides can meet (if they strictly behave)? An echo chamber? A raging angry gladiator pit? Like I said above, as a major Lemmy instance, this place should be downright boring and the extremists can retreat to other instances better suited to their anger.
What makes you angry about this?
It’s not this, it’s this whole subreddit. Might as well call it world_politics_gore_debate_bait.
Edit: to the stink bugs trying to dunk on me for doing exactly what I wanted to do when referring to this place looking like the worldnews subreddit, look up “metaphor” in a dictionary and stfu
subreddit
🫤
Edit: You ever see somebody say something dumb and then they unabashedly double down? Yeah.
Exactly, this subreddit.
Look up “metaphor” in a dictionary and stop doubling down on your mistaken shallow interpretation of what you just read.
Trying to say calling a Lemmy community a subreddit is a metaphor lmao
Also, you came back to the comments without getting a notification to reply to the edit? Dude, go outside lol
Here, I’ll do it for you:
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/metaphor/
Work today was a nightmare!
You: no, nightmares are not real life, you’re wrong.
You are my shining star.
You: There are no stars on Earth, you’re a moron and I’m dumping you.
Look at this pigsty!
You: This subreddit is not a pigsty, you are an illiterate moron
That athlete is a machine.
You: go learn what a machine is, you’d never make it as an engineer, because I’m in your head and know you didn’t intentionally mean to use a metaphor, because I’m full of myself and you’re a dumb anon.
The difference between you and me in this respect is that I have no shame in apologizing when wrong, while you not so much. Why am I losing time with this? Because people like me have an interest in having people like you be a little less self-righteous.
The rare quadruple down on the dumb. Calling a lemmy community a subreddit is not a metaphor, it’s objectively wrong. No matter how many non-applicable examples you provide. How are you this dense? (That’s rhetorical btw)
Because people like me have an interest in having people like you be a little less self-righteous.
lmfao the projection of writing this at the end of the most self righteous comment I’ve read on lemmy yet is delicious.
Removed by mod
Phrasing
