Definitely question the source. Even after writing I realized RT is more akin to hollywood propaganda than RFE. On the best of days could we compare RT to AP, I guess.

That leaves my other point standing. I understand we are all people and are emotional about such matters, but you countered the Romanian source with a jab, then drove the point home by attacking their state of mind. An emotional, triggering response to a friggin link. Deepening divide, operating with shame.

Why do you use these tools of shaming when plain truth is on your side? Why did you not go through the romanian sources with a trusted translator service and reply with glaring problems instead of questioning their sobriety?

Hi, sorry to butt in on this thread, but this part almost feels malicious:

I’m supposed to read Romanian now?

Especially in an age of automatic translation, this sentence just broadcasts ill intent. While you cannot know what allegances that specific Romanian outlet has, it feels strangely biased you doing all this under a Russia Today article. Also those jabs, man. ‘Did you drink too much?’

You really gonna call sources into question on an RT thread?? Would I be going too far as stating RT is to Russia what RFE is to the US??

Hey, you’re getting your wish. It will be hard for an already flailing US to stand up from the current havoc. And while it is highly speculative, I have seen some info on how deep Trump is in Putin’s pocket.

But I am playing the antilotto. I really hope I’m wrong!

Lol, I am hearing the glorious odes of the motherland while I read your reply.

Hey, tell me about the successful overthrow of the Nazis in 1956 Hungary. Was Imre Nagy just a legacy nazi that they forgot to clear out during the 40s?

Sorry if I come through a bit aggressive, but this is just cherrypicking data. And as a sidenote, what a thrill this discussion is! The european subreddits are ukranian echochambers, this feels like the opposite.

So, I don’t know if you know, but many countries haven’t really had a chance to digest the second world war collectively. The polish can go from zero to 100 as soon as you bring up national involvement in the holocaust.

If someone is bringing up old skeletons from a neighbouring country instead of working on their million and one problems at home, I get suspicious. Why are the Russians pointing a finger now? How is this not sewing division?

plenty others had their regime changed or couped

While I do appreciate that Maidan brought a regime change and the many Hungarian protests haven’t, so I keep the possibility of CIA intervention open there and can ‘give you’ that much. But which other Eastern European (or Baltic for that matter) had to be coaxed into Nato? Like where were there power grabs before the 2004 wave?

If it is a choice of going from sending troops to weird desert wars or having russian boots on Hungarian land, 10 times out of ten I’d choose the former.

We can disect the harm Soros caused the world, but I feel we see it from an opposing side. He funded Orbán and co. The same group that says it would have let the Russians in in '56 without resistance because that would have saved lives. It feels this is the main argument as well, against Ukraine: ‘Stop hurting yourself’. You can say Orbán got smart and stood up to the old dude, but this part feels like speculation.

I am fairly sure I won’t get convinced otherwise in this thread, but I do appreciate the civil tone. I am also in a lucky situation where things aren’t going my way: if I’m right, I get to say it, if I’m wrong, Ukraine will be denazified and peace will reign in a new Russo-European collaboration of the likes I haven’t seen before. Peace, hegemony.

Thanks for the talk. I’m open to further discussing views if you want/have the energy.

I do understand how Russia feels threatened by Nato expansion, but the many ‘buffer states’ chose to be part of a defense alliance by there own will.

But the Russian reasons are pluralized now. Not only is it Nato expanding, but they are also doing everyone a favor by killing nazis again. The first one might be a true threat to Russian interests, the second one seems to be moral justification.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain these stuff and give links. Just based on these facts you provided, I might be convinced. But there is an extra layer of bias in me that will be hard to scrub, and we need to bring Orbán into the mix for me to explain. So I’ve seen first hand what Orbán did to his country under his 14 year, near totalitarian reign. Orbán is playing for the russian side. Birds of a feather…

Even though I know most politicians are trash, I’d rather be under the thumb of capitalism, than a vassal of Russia. I don’t want small kings around, who have it right by might. And that is what Russia is doing now. Maybe US and Europe too, so who knows. It’s a shame diplomacy fell through.

Everything you say could be true. Just like the Ukranian propaganda. More probably there are kernels of truth, blown up on both sides.

Just from my personal view, I feel a Russian army moving towards Europe gives me more angst than some very problematic Ukranian language laws. I remember the laws being in the news in Hungary waaaay back in the day, maybe even before Maidan, but I wasn’t really paying attention to happenings at the time.

Please don’t get me wrong, I do not know the political climate to such extent in those countries and I do believe fascist memorials should be placed in a dedicated statue park (if not pulled apart in the heat of an event).

Are you implying that Nazis are not “baddies”?

Main baddies. I feel it debases us as it does them, this 2 dimensional thinking. White power. Nazis evil. If that’s the deepest you wanna go, be my guest. Of course we have to stand up against them, I really hope no one is getting that from my writing that nazism OK.

If I can use a very clunky IT support metaphor, we definitely need incident management (firefighting) now, but we should always look at root cause analysis to avoid the problem in the future. This is not an unfamiliar problem we are facing (historically speaking).

Maybe the time for mutual understanding has passed.

If you feel nazis are your main baddie, it might be better to understand what makes them tick. If not for empathy, then for hitting where it hurts.

Why do you say I am denying the presence of nazis? They are usually a niche demographic, but present in any country. I am not saying let the bastards speak hate with impunity.

For sure, countries need to look inward and start digesting that many people ate the onion in the first half of the 40s. Not because we need justice for the deaths of local minorities commited by nationals, but because this type of behaviour causes great trauma not just for the victims, but the aggressors. They pass this trauma down and it remains alive in current generations. It usually doesn’t even manifest itself as outright racism, just lots of anger issues in general (I guess this part is anecdotal).

All that being said, fuck Russia for bringing this up now. They went in to Ukraine under the flag of denazification. But Latvia is in Nato, so I don’t really see this as a cassus beli, but more of sowing division in EU.

Send RFK… They kinda look alike.