I know these federated communities exist as well as raddle, but it still seems like most people will stay on toxic and corporate-run platforms like reddit or Twitter. I’m far from perfect myself and I still use reddit sometimes, especially for more niche communities, but when it comes to ideologically strong communities like the anarchist ones, it just feels wrong that the majority still hang out on reddit. Or you know, moving to something like Bsky when Twitter became too toxic but which is still run by a large, for-profit corporation (if they moved in the first place). What are your thoughts? Is there any justification for this?

  • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comM
    1·
    2 months ago

    What I said initially: “Perhaps they are thinking of the “anarchists” that just watch YouTube videos to get angry at “the tankies” based on a misunderstanding of history in the 1920s”

    And I said there’s plenty of other decades with “misunderstandings”?

    And of fucking course the 20s and 30s are the primary focus because that’s the period with the last revolutionary potential which MLs squandered to build Capitalism again.

    Or is that meant to be euphemistic cover for “a couple admins”?

    No, an affinity group is an affinity group a bunch of admins is something else, but can also be valid.

    Personally, I don’t think “two people make the important decisions” is complaining about imperfection when it comes to an anarchist instance. It’s really just unexamined centralization that is otherwise an implicit part of the process of hosting software. And it’s very funny.

    There’s plenty of scenarios where anarchists take decisions without voting. Again, you don’t get to declare by fiat what is a “major decision”. But I’m glad you’re self-amused at least.

    The “purity” is “basic correspondence to the core principals of what you claim to be”.

    Nonense.

    But please do tell me about the regimes I support and how I am inconsistent on this. I expect you to be able to explain this without my input, as you are so certain, right?

    I’m pretty certain you’re a Marxist-Leninist, so you (critically?) support the usual suspects of USSR and PRC. Probably also Cuba and if you’re extreme enough North Korea. Am I wrong?

    A short version of the naturalistic fallacy is, “what is, is what should be”. That you justify what should be simply because it is how things are done. That is the logic you presented! “You don’t vote on each ban your> admins and mods take either.”

    That’s not a naturalistic fallacy. That’s me pointing out that this way of acting is obvious when you don’t decide by fiat why something is “major decision” for others. I’m also pointing out potential hypocrisy.

    You did not say the latter, actually. But you did say that you don’t vote on each ban, as if this justifies the practice. It sounds kind of like these instances should!

    No, I didn’t say that doing this justifies it. That’s bad uncharitable reading on your part to claim a fallacy. I’ve actually done “voting on every ban” so I’m familiar with how well it works. Have you?

    Just for the record, do tell, what experience do you have running an instance or a comm?

    No I don’t and I already responded to that. This situation is not one of what people joined, it was a censorship decision, it required a change. Gotta flip that ‘block’ button and all that.

    Do you know that for sure? Did you check when slrpnk defederated hexbear?

    Yes of course it is, at least if you want to say you are anarchist. That’s a major decision and it is something that even “authoritarian” instances can accomplish. I know that anarchists could do it even better!

    Again, why do you think you can declare by fiat what is a major decision?

    No, it is not what we are talking about.

    It certainly is. Again, do you know when such instances were blocked comparative to the life of the acting instance?

    It’s funny because while I didn’t ignore that, because I’ve already directly said in no uncertain terms that I disagree 3-4 times, you ignored my response to what you said: it’s a silly straw man.

    Just because you disagree what is a “major decision” for other groups of people you don’t belong to, doesn’t mean you are right. The impact of the decision and who gets to vote on it is determined by the people most affected by it. That’s the core anarchist principle you don’t seem to understand.

    • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
      11·
      2 months ago

      And I said there’s plenty of other decades with “misunderstandings”?

      And of fucking course the 20s and 30s are the primary focus because that’s the period with the last revolutionary potential which MLs squandered to build Capitalism again.

      If you skip over what I say, you will end up making us go in circles. The next thing I wrote: “I am of course not saying “the only things are from the 1920s”, but that this is a primary focus. And when asked about the time periods you think of as primary, they popped up. Full circle, lol.”

      No, an affinity group is an affinity group a bunch of admins is something else, but can also be valid.

      Then acknowledge what I said before this and that you skipped over: “Right so they are anarchist instances. And they make important decisions about federation by fiat of a couple admins. And that is very funny for anarchists to do. Inventing scenarios that didn’t happen to say how they are reasonable is… not relevant. In many ways you implicitly acknowledge how silly it is, because none of your examples are, “a couple admins just decide it”, instead you talk about affinity group subsets.”

      There’s plenty of scenarios where anarchists take decisions without voting.

      Yes of course there are. This is not a real response to anything I have said. We have already long established that this is about making site-wide censorship decisions re: federation, not literally everything. That is just another implicit straw man.

      I think, of course, that is it obvious that a site-wide censorship decision is an important one that it is very funny for an anarchist instance to decide via a couple admins.

      Again, you don’t get to declare by fiat what is a “major decision”. But I’m glad you’re self-amused at least.

      I do get to say, by fiat, what I think is a major decision. And I think it’s actually pretty obviously a major decision, which is why despite being 3-4 comments deep we still have to talk about things like “There’s plenty of scenarios where anarchists take decisions without voting”.

      Nonense

      Yesnsense.

      I’m pretty certain you’re a Marxist-Leninist, so you (critically?) support the usual suspects of USSR and PRC. Probably also Cuba and if you’re extreme enough North Korea. Am I wrong?

      “I expect you to be able to explain this without my input, as you are so certain, right?”

      That’s not a naturalistic fallacy. That’s me pointing out that this way of acting is obvious when you don’t decide by fiat why something is “major decision” for others.

      I do get to decide my opinions by “fiat”, lol. Got the thought police in here. Why are you copying my terminology to use it inappropriately for other situations?

      But okay, I will accept that what you meant was that it was obvious. I will simply disagree (for the 5th time), because I think it is obvious that site-wide censorship is obviously a significant decision.

      No, I didn’t say that doing this justifies it. That’s bad uncharitable reading on your part to claim a fallacy. I’ve actually done “voting on every ban” so I’m familiar with how well it works. Have you?

      My point, which I will say was not obvious, when it comes to voting on every ban, was that it would be better to overcorrect in the opposite decision.

      Just for the record, do tell, what experience do you have running an instance or a comm?

      I have experience with both. It’s thankless, isn’t it?

      Do you know that for sure? Did you check when slrpnk defederated hexbear?

      slrpnk did not defederate from hexbear. It blocked hexbear without announcement, by fiat of its main admin. It confirmed this blocking/“defedereation” in August last year. This was not something discussed nor presented, lol. It’s just one admin doing what they would like.

      Again, why do you think you can declare by fiat what is a major decision?

      lmao there it is again.

      A censorship decision is of course major, it is about who your instance’s users can interact with via your website. If your federated social media website is anything at all, it is about users and how they interact, what they post, etc.

      And again, non-anarchist instances have done this. It’s very very very funny that anarchists ones don’t.

      It certainly is.

      It is painfully obviously not. An admin quietly implementing a decision to block after the instance existed and then letting people know this is how it was last year is not in any way an anarchist collective where everyone’s just agreeing to those pre-existing bylaws by joining. It is just a website with an admin making the decision on their own.

      Again, do you know when such instances were blocked comparative to the life of the acting instance?

      Uh yeah?

      Just because you disagree what is a “major decision” for other groups of people you don’t belong to, doesn’t mean you are right.

      I think this straw manning thing might be a habit.

      The impact of the decision and who gets to vote on it is determined by the people most affected by it.

      Of course that is literally not the case here, is it? Or did slrpnk vote to block/defederate?

      That’s the core anarchist principle you don’t seem to understand.

      The core anarchist principle that nobody gets to judge who is anarchist unless they are a member of that particular anarchist group? I would love to see that core principle justified. Please show me your sources!

      • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comM
        1·
        2 months ago

        This discussion is getting tiring and fragmented and going nowhere. I will again reiterate that anarchist instances doesn’t mean that the admins always have the time to take the effort to sort them out in the most anarchistic way possible. Therefore some decisions will be taken as obvious and done directly to protect the instance members. Many anarchists will consider a tankie-haven like hexbear as valid an instance to block without further discussion as much as exploding-heads. This is obviously accepted given the lack of outcry by their members. There’s plenty of ways to handle these decisions and your inability to consider them in favour of trying to goad me with it being “funny” just betrays either immaturity and complete inexperience modding large communities, or that you’re just trolling and I’m inclined to think of the latter.

        The arguments you make in this thread and your insistence about the 20s betrays you as a Marxist-Leninist, but feel free to tell me I’m actually wrong and I would be surprised. Stranger things have happened. However as an ML, you have scant understanding of how anarchists work and therefore it’s impossible to take seriously your moderation suggestions as coming from an anarchist perpective.

        Given that I think you seem to just be trolling to amuse yourself, you are a waste of time to engage with as there’s nothing constructive to be gained by reading you try to goad and gotcha me endlessly.

        • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
          22·
          2 months ago

          This discussion is getting tiring and fragmented and going nowhere.

          Because it is mostly a series of straw men coming from you at this point and an aversion to replying to what I say instead.

          I will again reiterate that anarchist instances doesn’t mean that the admins always have the time to take the effort to sort them out in the most anarchistic way possible.

          And there’s another! “The most anarchistic way possible”. If only someone here had said that.

          Therefore some decisions will be taken as obvious and done directly to protect the instance members. Many anarchists will consider a tankie-haven like hexbear as valid an instance to block without further discussion as much as exploding-heads.

          You are now telling stories instead of acknowledging it was one admin making a decision with no discussion or feedback, lmao. Just be direct and to the point if you don’t like things to meander or become tiring.

          This is obviously accepted given the lack of outcry by their members.

          That is certainly true! But it does not make it less funny and absurd.

          There’s plenty of ways to handle these decisions and your inability to consider them in favour of trying to goad me with it being “funny”

          Goad you? I said it right off the bat as a one-off observation and it has snowballed because you are not being direct.

          just betrays either immaturity and complete inexperience modding large communities, or that you’re just trolling and I’m inclined to think of the latter.

          Or maybe I just think it is funny and at odds with anarchistic thought.

          The arguments you make in this thread and your insistence about the 20s betrays you as a Marxist-Leninist, but feel free to tell me I’m actually wrong and I would be surprised. Stranger things have happened. However as an ML, you have scant understanding of how anarchists work and therefore it’s impossible to take seriously your moderation suggestions as coming from an anarchist perpective.

          “I expect you to be able to explain this without my input, as you are so certain, right?”

          This is a topic that is entirely your deviation by the way.

          Given that I think you seem to just be trolling to amuse yourself, you are a waste of time to engage with as there’s nothing constructive to be gained by reading you try to goad and gotcha me endlessly.

          I agree that this is a silly conversation, but this is because you leave a pile of inconsistencies and illogic and guesswork and evasion at my feet and say, “here is my counterargument”, and I have to say, “wow look at all this nonsense” and then say exactly what is wrong with it. It is the opposite of trolling, I am trying to take you seriously. You aren’t making it easy.

          • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comM
            1·
            2 months ago

            Yawn. More of the same. MLs claiming they understand anarchism better than anarchists and proceeding to lecture. Your argumentation method is built to be exhausting instead of constructive and I have no mood for it. Goodbye.