I’m not an AI evangelist but I am open-minded. I think Debian’s decision is balanced, and more importantly realistic.
There’s a difference between vibe coding and using AI to improve productivity. I’m a dev and pretty much everyone I know is using AI in some way. Yes they’ll lose contributors initially but Debian would lose more in the long run if they’d outright banned it.
For all those who are saying ‘AI supports fascists’ - the most popular models right now are Chinese. Very oppressive and paranoid government but definitely not fascist.
For all those that say ‘AI causes global warming’ - you’re correct, but unless you’ve got your own solar panels, so does your non-AI gaming rig. And your gas-driven car.
For all those that say ‘AI causes global warming’ - you’re correct, but unless you’ve got your own solar panels, so does your non-AI gaming rig. And your gas-driven car.
so fucking what? stop trying unless you’re perfect? every bit helps! fuck you
what do you expect people to do? go full kaczynski and live in a cabin in the woods? and if that’s not acceptable for the person, they might as well burn down the amazon cause that’s basically the same anyway?
are you okay? are you having some mental issues? there are people that can help you.
this extreme black/white thinking combined with a defeatist attitude can’t be healthy in the long term, for you or the rest of the planet
No, that’s exactly what I’m trying to highlight. This person is criticizing others for using technology/electricity, while doing the exact same thing themselves. It’s hypocritical. There’s nothing that can be done until the system itself changes. Criticizing others does nothing but highlight the fact that you’re an idiot who is falling for the propaganda to keep people fighting amongst themselves, rather than targeting the system itself.
No one is paying me for this job, and it’s doomed to fail. It’s like yelling into the void. Whether I do it at one decibel level or another, the outcome is identical.
That only works if you ignore the difference in scale.
My backyard campfire also adds CO2 to the atmosphere, but that doesn’t make the corporations any less responsible. They account for the supermajority of CO2 greenhouse gas emissions.
(You missed that my reply was a copy/paste of the comment I was roasting, and you have just given me the answer I gave them, which lead to your responding to me. The circle is complete, ad nauseum.)
I disagree. You are an AI evangelist and quite closed-minded. Having a “balanced” approach, if there was one, would be to label any AI usage explicitly. If you’re afraid to label your AI usage, you’re a fucking coward.
But, damn, let’s not blame the billion dollar data centers for global warming, guys! It’s the individual decisions you make every day that kills the planet! If you believe this, the AI has fried your brain. It’s not one authoritarian government, it’s a different one! Actual paste-eating behavior. My work has improved with LLM usage! A common saying from people who were not good at their job, and are somehow now worse without them realizing it.
Any decent developer I have found has hated LLMs because they do not work anywhere near as well as people who are shit at things think they do. Personally, I don’t really like smashing the Skinner Box button hoping the output works this time because I like programming, and having Claude rape my codebase seems like a bad idea to me if I ever want to go back in there. But, then again, I like knowing how my code works, so maybe I should just lobotomize myself and I’ll understand why you like it so much.
I don’t have discussions with people that think the problem behind LLMs with high energy and water usage is that people use cars too much. Literally no one wants to subsidize their fucking local data center. Plus, you definitely ALSO use a car, so you’re not even better than the people you are trying to criticize because ChatGPT has rotted that portion of your brain from disuse. Frankly, I’ll be a nasty piece of work if it gets it through your thick fucking skull that AI is shit, most people know it’s shit, and you are likely shittier at everything you do using it. But, sure, complain about my tone, and never my message, because all you AI bros get so fucking butthurt by anyone saying anything bad about AI. Just call me a Luddite already or whatever and then go cry in your AI discord.
I don’t have discussions with people that think the problem behind LLMs with high energy and water usage
I didn’t say I didn’t think that was a problem, I was highlighting the hypocracy around it all.
Plus, you definitely ALSO use a car
Actually I dont. I dont own or use a car. My primary mode of transport is my own two legs.
so you’re not even better than the people you are trying to criticize
I didn’t say I was, you’re drawing conclusions based on what I haven’t said.
Frankly, I’ll be a nasty piece of work if it gets it through your thick fucking skull that AI is shit, most people know it’s shit, and you are likely shittier at everything you do using it.
You seem to think you’re some hero and doing the world a favour but you’re behaving like an opinionated bully. You are by far the vilest person I have encountered on here.
Even if every single fucking person on earth stopped driving their fucking car, global warming wouldn’t fucking stop because the vast majority of it is corporations’ fault, and those data centers are a major contributor to that. But subsidizing your lack of carbon footprint by using an LLM is a weird fucking flex, I guess. You were the one that brought up how using an LLM is like using a car, so sounds like you do care about that. But, sure, highlight the major pollution issues and not the fucking over poor people who have to subsidize your LLMs water and energy usage. My car didn’t make you pay double for your water bill like an asshole.
Agreed. I think they should have pushed for stronger disclosure requirements, but I also realise that isn’t actually enforceable.
I also find it very telling that people will talk about the negative parts of AI, but not acknowledge other automation tools that perpetuate the same problems. My experience is that most people’s complaints have a real basis, but they are just mis-diagnosed.
The problems seem to be our economic and societal structures, and AI is the new fancy tool that exacerbates those problems. But I’ve not heard a good reason why AI itself is that problem.
I think it’s helpful to separate the problems of the technology itself from all the BS that big tech companies engage in when developing and pushing it.
Say you only use small, open-weight models that are hosted locally in a data center that is conscientious, environmentally clean, has strict data privacy policies and doesn’t pull the bullshit big-tech do.
You use them minimally and responsibly, you don’t over-rely on them. Is there a problem in that case?
You use them minimally and responsibly, you don’t over-rely on them. Is there a problem in that case?
Responsibly is the key word there. I.e. vibe-coding an entire project full of security risks without understanding the architecture or languages used. Vs. using LLMs to error check code, brainstorm a project, write code you feel confident you can review yourself.
Also, like you say, hosting locally. Or using a provider like Mistral that is European, not evil, uses France’s abundant nuclear power…
If a project on github was 100% vibe coded with no (initial) human review - I’d want to know that.
If a project was 60% hand coded, 40% vibes but reviewed by a human
… yeah in the interests of openness it doesn’t hurt to disclose that.
If a project was 100% hand cranked but checked by an LLM? If its open source I’m not sure I need to know that.
If a project was 100% hand cranked and human-reviewed, is open source but the dev used an LLM to keep a to do list of tasks… no I don’t need to know that.
And like someone else pointed out - how exactly do you verify that AI was not used at all for any part of a project?
Also, you know Microsoft will be vibe-coding its products. Would that stop you using Windows, Xbox, M365 etc?
Re: your last point, I am definitely moving away from Microsoft products for that very reason. We were discussing Linux here, right? It’s become a headache to find a distro I feel ethical and safe about using.
Also, a ban without control isn’t a ban. And making sure that not a single line of code was writen with the help of some AI seems more than complicated… is it just possible?
And how much working time would it take to audit all packages to make sure it is 100% wrote by some human?
It seems more realistic (and more honnest) to allow the part that would not be found by a reasonable audit of the code.
Who said 100% was the goal? We don’t ever have 100% guaranteed exploit free code, or 100% guaranteed spyware free code, etc. The point is you send a message and try your best if you think those are worthwhile goals to attain.
The people saying “but we can’t possibly stop all usage, so why try” aren’t being pragmatic; imo they’re giving up. My assumption is because they don’t want to confront the nasty externalities of their own ai use.
The same could be said of a lot of technologies that enable greater corporate capture at the expense of the environment and overall human wellbeing—and we should be doing something about those as well.
I agree with you, and from my understanding (which could be inaccurate) the position of debian is to avoid a part of the use of that technology they judge both wrong and avoidable.
My own nasty use of AI is mostly to find back the name or syntaxe of functions I seldom use, and sometimes to explain me some theorical points. I admit it is wrong and only spares me only a few hours a week at most compared to stack overflow and online tutorials.
And my laziness would probably make me accept the existance of one model that would be a public property democraticaly controled ; which would consume less ressources than having many concurrents, and avoid the profit-oriented and corporate mindsets (I imagine them being the main source of threat)…
Not a genocide. No mass killings. Pure propaganda pushed by a CIA plant named Adrian Zenz. (You should look into him; he’s a religious zealot who believes his Agency-promoted investigation is a mission from God.) The UN’s own report from 2022 never uses the word genocide. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/08/1125932
It is an anti-radicalization education program put in place because the CIA was arming and training groups of Uyghurs with the intent of creating terrorist cells, just like they’ve done in bunches of other countries.
The word “genocide” should never be used lightly. What Israel is doing to the people of occupied Palestine? That’s a genocide.
China is authoritarian, and that’s sort of the problem. That’s why the US is bad, bozo. But, sure, why don’t we point out all the definitely not capitalism that China is doing so you can pretend that all those Uyghurs aren’t being genocided, nor that the AI surveillance state they’ve got going on to censor and disappear people. Damn, dude, I’m glad I can pick between these two shitty governments.
I’m not an AI evangelist but I am open-minded. I think Debian’s decision is balanced, and more importantly realistic.
There’s a difference between vibe coding and using AI to improve productivity. I’m a dev and pretty much everyone I know is using AI in some way. Yes they’ll lose contributors initially but Debian would lose more in the long run if they’d outright banned it.
For all those who are saying ‘AI supports fascists’ - the most popular models right now are Chinese. Very oppressive and paranoid government but definitely not fascist.
For all those that say ‘AI causes global warming’ - you’re correct, but unless you’ve got your own solar panels, so does your non-AI gaming rig. And your gas-driven car.
so fucking what? stop trying unless you’re perfect? every bit helps! fuck you
You’re vegan too, I presume, since animal agriculture is one of the largest contributors to global warming?
You typed this from a machine you know is causing global warming, hypocrite. That’s what.
Oh go suck some fucking Billionaires dick some more. Maybe one day you’ll be good enough and get that trickle down.
Moron. Can’t tell the difference between a laptop and a data center.
what do you expect people to do? go full kaczynski and live in a cabin in the woods? and if that’s not acceptable for the person, they might as well burn down the amazon cause that’s basically the same anyway?
are you okay? are you having some mental issues? there are people that can help you.
this extreme black/white thinking combined with a defeatist attitude can’t be healthy in the long term, for you or the rest of the planet
No, that’s exactly what I’m trying to highlight. This person is criticizing others for using technology/electricity, while doing the exact same thing themselves. It’s hypocritical. There’s nothing that can be done until the system itself changes. Criticizing others does nothing but highlight the fact that you’re an idiot who is falling for the propaganda to keep people fighting amongst themselves, rather than targeting the system itself.
you’re doing a horrible job, might wanna rethink your methods
No one is paying me for this job, and it’s doomed to fail. It’s like yelling into the void. Whether I do it at one decibel level or another, the outcome is identical.
That only works if you ignore the difference in scale.
My backyard campfire also adds CO2 to the atmosphere, but that doesn’t make the corporations any less responsible. They account for the supermajority of CO2 greenhouse gas emissions.
so fucking what? stop trying unless you’re perfect? every bit helps! fuck you
yeah, fuck you, specifically
Thanks. Fuck you specifically, too!
Now get off the Internet, you’re harming the environment with your electricity usage.
pro AI asshoe says what
🤣
A PC causes far less global warming than an AI datacenter. Like, it’s not even comparable.
so fucking what? stop trying unless you’re perfect? every bit helps! fuck you
Why don’t you start by turning off your device?
Exactly!
(You missed that my reply was a copy/paste of the comment I was roasting, and you have just given me the answer I gave them, which lead to your responding to me. The circle is complete, ad nauseum.)
Oh I’m not perfect so everything bad is OK argument. Like we need at this time to be burning more fossil fuels.
deleted by creator
Right? We should all shut off our computers at once, and never turn them on again. That will fix it!
I disagree. You are an AI evangelist and quite closed-minded. Having a “balanced” approach, if there was one, would be to label any AI usage explicitly. If you’re afraid to label your AI usage, you’re a fucking coward.
But, damn, let’s not blame the billion dollar data centers for global warming, guys! It’s the individual decisions you make every day that kills the planet! If you believe this, the AI has fried your brain. It’s not one authoritarian government, it’s a different one! Actual paste-eating behavior. My work has improved with LLM usage! A common saying from people who were not good at their job, and are somehow now worse without them realizing it.
Any decent developer I have found has hated LLMs because they do not work anywhere near as well as people who are shit at things think they do. Personally, I don’t really like smashing the Skinner Box button hoping the output works this time because I like programming, and having Claude rape my codebase seems like a bad idea to me if I ever want to go back in there. But, then again, I like knowing how my code works, so maybe I should just lobotomize myself and I’ll understand why you like it so much.
Wow. You know, it is possible to have a discussion and even disagree with people without being a nasty peice of work?
I don’t have discussions with people that think the problem behind LLMs with high energy and water usage is that people use cars too much. Literally no one wants to subsidize their fucking local data center. Plus, you definitely ALSO use a car, so you’re not even better than the people you are trying to criticize because ChatGPT has rotted that portion of your brain from disuse. Frankly, I’ll be a nasty piece of work if it gets it through your thick fucking skull that AI is shit, most people know it’s shit, and you are likely shittier at everything you do using it. But, sure, complain about my tone, and never my message, because all you AI bros get so fucking butthurt by anyone saying anything bad about AI. Just call me a Luddite already or whatever and then go cry in your AI discord.
I didn’t say I didn’t think that was a problem, I was highlighting the hypocracy around it all.
Actually I dont. I dont own or use a car. My primary mode of transport is my own two legs.
I didn’t say I was, you’re drawing conclusions based on what I haven’t said.
You seem to think you’re some hero and doing the world a favour but you’re behaving like an opinionated bully. You are by far the vilest person I have encountered on here.
Even if every single fucking person on earth stopped driving their fucking car, global warming wouldn’t fucking stop because the vast majority of it is corporations’ fault, and those data centers are a major contributor to that. But subsidizing your lack of carbon footprint by using an LLM is a weird fucking flex, I guess. You were the one that brought up how using an LLM is like using a car, so sounds like you do care about that. But, sure, highlight the major pollution issues and not the fucking over poor people who have to subsidize your LLMs water and energy usage. My car didn’t make you pay double for your water bill like an asshole.
Agreed. I think they should have pushed for stronger disclosure requirements, but I also realise that isn’t actually enforceable.
I also find it very telling that people will talk about the negative parts of AI, but not acknowledge other automation tools that perpetuate the same problems. My experience is that most people’s complaints have a real basis, but they are just mis-diagnosed.
The problems seem to be our economic and societal structures, and AI is the new fancy tool that exacerbates those problems. But I’ve not heard a good reason why AI itself is that problem.
I think it’s helpful to separate the problems of the technology itself from all the BS that big tech companies engage in when developing and pushing it.
Say you only use small, open-weight models that are hosted locally in a data center that is conscientious, environmentally clean, has strict data privacy policies and doesn’t pull the bullshit big-tech do.
You use them minimally and responsibly, you don’t over-rely on them. Is there a problem in that case?
Responsibly is the key word there. I.e. vibe-coding an entire project full of security risks without understanding the architecture or languages used. Vs. using LLMs to error check code, brainstorm a project, write code you feel confident you can review yourself.
Also, like you say, hosting locally. Or using a provider like Mistral that is European, not evil, uses France’s abundant nuclear power…
There is no such thing as Responsibly if there is no disclosure.
I sort-of agree, but what are you disclosing?
If a project on github was 100% vibe coded with no (initial) human review - I’d want to know that.
If a project was 60% hand coded, 40% vibes but reviewed by a human … yeah in the interests of openness it doesn’t hurt to disclose that.
If a project was 100% hand cranked but checked by an LLM? If its open source I’m not sure I need to know that.
If a project was 100% hand cranked and human-reviewed, is open source but the dev used an LLM to keep a to do list of tasks… no I don’t need to know that.
And like someone else pointed out - how exactly do you verify that AI was not used at all for any part of a project?
Also, you know Microsoft will be vibe-coding its products. Would that stop you using Windows, Xbox, M365 etc?
Re: your last point, I am definitely moving away from Microsoft products for that very reason. We were discussing Linux here, right? It’s become a headache to find a distro I feel ethical and safe about using.
Also, a ban without control isn’t a ban. And making sure that not a single line of code was writen with the help of some AI seems more than complicated… is it just possible?
And how much working time would it take to audit all packages to make sure it is 100% wrote by some human?
It seems more realistic (and more honnest) to allow the part that would not be found by a reasonable audit of the code.
Who said 100% was the goal? We don’t ever have 100% guaranteed exploit free code, or 100% guaranteed spyware free code, etc. The point is you send a message and try your best if you think those are worthwhile goals to attain.
The people saying “but we can’t possibly stop all usage, so why try” aren’t being pragmatic; imo they’re giving up. My assumption is because they don’t want to confront the nasty externalities of their own ai use.
The same could be said of a lot of technologies that enable greater corporate capture at the expense of the environment and overall human wellbeing—and we should be doing something about those as well.
I agree with you, and from my understanding (which could be inaccurate) the position of debian is to avoid a part of the use of that technology they judge both wrong and avoidable.
My own nasty use of AI is mostly to find back the name or syntaxe of functions I seldom use, and sometimes to explain me some theorical points. I admit it is wrong and only spares me only a few hours a week at most compared to stack overflow and online tutorials.
And my laziness would probably make me accept the existance of one model that would be a public property democraticaly controled ; which would consume less ressources than having many concurrents, and avoid the profit-oriented and corporate mindsets (I imagine them being the main source of threat)…
That is … an interesting take, especially taking the Uyghur genocide into account.
Not a genocide. No mass killings. Pure propaganda pushed by a CIA plant named Adrian Zenz. (You should look into him; he’s a religious zealot who believes his Agency-promoted investigation is a mission from God.) The UN’s own report from 2022 never uses the word genocide. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/08/1125932
It is an anti-radicalization education program put in place because the CIA was arming and training groups of Uyghurs with the intent of creating terrorist cells, just like they’ve done in bunches of other countries.
The word “genocide” should never be used lightly. What Israel is doing to the people of occupied Palestine? That’s a genocide.
Fascism is far-right. China is sort-of Communist, which is far-left.
Thus China is not fascist. Still a brutal, oppressive borderline-genocidal regime, but not fascist.
Communism is just a label very easy to roleplay for control (see: .ml).
China is authoritarian, and that’s sort of the problem. That’s why the US is bad, bozo. But, sure, why don’t we point out all the definitely not capitalism that China is doing so you can pretend that all those Uyghurs aren’t being genocided, nor that the AI surveillance state they’ve got going on to censor and disappear people. Damn, dude, I’m glad I can pick between these two shitty governments.