“Software Engineer” is a title that is licensed by professional engineering organizations in Canada. Would you acknowledge that it’s “a thing” in Canada?
Assuming the provincial or national government requires you to have such a license or be working under supervision of someone who does in order to be employed in the practice of making software, then yes.
The fact that it’s licenced in one region but not another, and you rely on the licence in order to grant it the title of engineer, makes your base completely fallacious IMO. How can you step over a border and suddenly change your mind? Makes zero sense to me.
Do you understand what being a professional (in the formal sense) actually is? It means your first responsibility is to the public, not your employer, and you are legally responsible for the work that you do. That goes for doctors, lawyers, and yes, engineers.
If you as a civil engineer design an unsafe structure and it kills people, you can go to prison. If your employer demands you approve an unsafe design, the fact that you have to stamp the plans that get filed with the government gives you the power to resist. That’s what being licensed means.
If people making software don’t have that level of accountability – again, to the public, not to their megalomaniacal tech bro boss – then they ain’t engineers.
It only varies by jurisdiction in the sense that some jurisdictions care about protecting the public and some apparently don’t.
idk about grue but imo that depends on the requirements of the title. If you need to be a real engineer capable of doing real engineering work to claim it then by all means.
If you need less than 14 math credits and only general ed science requirements, then no.
CAEB accredites Canadian university programs, including civil engineering programs, electrical engineering programs, and yes, software engineering programs. In addition, provincial engineering organizations such as PEO require that all professiomal engineers are employed as engineers in training (EIT) for a period of time, have passed an ethics exam, and are in good professional standing.
TL;DR: yes, officially recognized software engineers are real engineers in Canada.
The other key requirements I hope your licensing has are continuing education requirements and, most importantly, the notion of being a professional and having accountability to the public, not just your employer. Just taking one college class where you learn about Therac-25 isn’t enough; a professional software engineer also needs to have the power to refuse unethical demands by their employer (e.g. to build dark patterns or otherwise enshittify the software) and have that judgement be backed up by the state.
Validity aside, it isn’t an engineering discipline, that’s right.
Programmers are important and do important work but programming doesn’t make somebody a physician, or sheriff, or attorney, or congressman.
When control valves in a reactor don’t appear to be having an effect you don’t call the comp sci guy in to run diagnostics on the terminal, first, instead you call the engineers who manually seal the valves and shuts down the turbines to prevent coolant loss.
You can see the CEAB accredited programs and decide for yourself if they meet your personal criteria – they all seem to include a substantial variety of advanced mathematics.
I’m sensing that you may be an engineer in another discipline who feels jealous that the horde of unregulated software engineers are diluting your title. It’s a valid concern in my opinion, and one that is shared by organizations like PEO who have and will take action on people using the term incorrectly, although their resources and jurisdiction are obviously limited. The key differentiation is between a licensed, professional software engineer with a stamp, and a software developer who was given “engineer” in their title at work.
I am not familiar with the curriculum of every single accredited engineering program in Canada, and few people are. I am fairly confident that I do not know as little about them as you do, however.
Well I am not planning to familiarize myself with every single engineering accrediting institution on earth nor would it have any impact on my beliefs of what is and is not an engineering discipline.
During my computer engineering degree I was required to take enough math credits to earn a mathematics minor, and I learned the physics of transistors at a quantum level as part of the core curriculum. Do you think I can call myself an engineer, or should I limit it to just - what was the wording you used - oh yeah, syntax ape?
IIRC you can’t actually use the title “Engineer” prefixed or not without having a P.Eng license here in Canada. Of course, that didn’t stop my previous American employers from giving me the title of Software Engineer but it’s not supposed to be allowed
Which is completely stupid, you can perform engineering without having paid the order and it doesn’t feel like there’s any other word that explains the job quite as easily.
Looking up synonyms though it seems I could legally call myself a “software mastermind”, “software plotter” or “software captain”.
I do agree partially but I also get wanting “engineer” to be a protected term. I think software design is probably one more valid uses of the term but I think applying it to everything ain’t it (I.e. sanitation engineer).
Tbh I’m happy enough just having a Software Developer title
Yeah, I’ve looked it up and this is definitely the case, I’ve also had both Canadian and American employers refer to my position this way continuously with no repercussions (I similarly have an engineering degree in another field and was an eit and am now in software).
It’s weird because if the provincial engineering societies were serious about enforcing their rules, it would take them ZERO effort to find thousands and thousands and thousands of violations through like a single LinkedIn search. The fact that they dont put in such a minimal amount of effort kind of signals they don’t care about the rule.
Yeah, I moved into software from electrical engineering. “Software engineers” are rarely doing engineering. Though, weirdly, the LLM-assisted coding methods seems to be leading to more of a focus on specs, design documents, and testing methodology, which almost makes it more like actual engineering.
“Software engineer” will be a thing when it’s licensed by the state. Until then, we’re all just glorified cowboy-coders with no accountability.
(Speaking as computer programmer with an EIT in a different field.)
“Software Engineer” is a title that is licensed by professional engineering organizations in Canada. Would you acknowledge that it’s “a thing” in Canada?
Assuming the provincial or national government requires you to have such a license or be working under supervision of someone who does in order to be employed in the practice of making software, then yes.
The fact that it’s licenced in one region but not another, and you rely on the licence in order to grant it the title of engineer, makes your base completely fallacious IMO. How can you step over a border and suddenly change your mind? Makes zero sense to me.
Do you understand what being a professional (in the formal sense) actually is? It means your first responsibility is to the public, not your employer, and you are legally responsible for the work that you do. That goes for doctors, lawyers, and yes, engineers.
If you as a civil engineer design an unsafe structure and it kills people, you can go to prison. If your employer demands you approve an unsafe design, the fact that you have to stamp the plans that get filed with the government gives you the power to resist. That’s what being licensed means.
If people making software don’t have that level of accountability – again, to the public, not to their megalomaniacal tech bro boss – then they ain’t engineers.
It only varies by jurisdiction in the sense that some jurisdictions care about protecting the public and some apparently don’t.
That’s not the law in every country as far as I understand, so this simply comes down to a matter of definition.
Case closed as far as I’m concerned. I’m quite satisfied with that.
idk about grue but imo that depends on the requirements of the title. If you need to be a real engineer capable of doing real engineering work to claim it then by all means.
If you need less than 14 math credits and only general ed science requirements, then no.
CAEB accredites Canadian university programs, including civil engineering programs, electrical engineering programs, and yes, software engineering programs. In addition, provincial engineering organizations such as PEO require that all professiomal engineers are employed as engineers in training (EIT) for a period of time, have passed an ethics exam, and are in good professional standing.
TL;DR: yes, officially recognized software engineers are real engineers in Canada.
The other key requirements I hope your licensing has are continuing education requirements and, most importantly, the notion of being a professional and having accountability to the public, not just your employer. Just taking one college class where you learn about Therac-25 isn’t enough; a professional software engineer also needs to have the power to refuse unethical demands by their employer (e.g. to build dark patterns or otherwise enshittify the software) and have that judgement be backed up by the state.
Alright but it feels like you didn’t really touch on my personal requirements and just appealed to authority.
Feels like the right thing to do, IMO. Why do your personal requirements matter anywhere regarding this? 😆
Progress comes from the voicing of opinions.
And your opinion is that software is not a valid engineering discipline?
Validity aside, it isn’t an engineering discipline, that’s right.
Programmers are important and do important work but programming doesn’t make somebody a physician, or sheriff, or attorney, or congressman.
When control valves in a reactor don’t appear to be having an effect you don’t call the comp sci guy in to run diagnostics on the terminal, first, instead you call the engineers who manually seal the valves and shuts down the turbines to prevent coolant loss.
You can see the CEAB accredited programs and decide for yourself if they meet your personal criteria – they all seem to include a substantial variety of advanced mathematics.
I’m sensing that you may be an engineer in another discipline who feels jealous that the horde of unregulated software engineers are diluting your title. It’s a valid concern in my opinion, and one that is shared by organizations like PEO who have and will take action on people using the term incorrectly, although their resources and jurisdiction are obviously limited. The key differentiation is between a licensed, professional software engineer with a stamp, and a software developer who was given “engineer” in their title at work.
You seemed more familiar with them so I wanted to hear your input but apparently you know as little about them as I do.
I am not familiar with the curriculum of every single accredited engineering program in Canada, and few people are. I am fairly confident that I do not know as little about them as you do, however.
Well I am not planning to familiarize myself with every single engineering accrediting institution on earth nor would it have any impact on my beliefs of what is and is not an engineering discipline.
During my computer engineering degree I was required to take enough math credits to earn a mathematics minor, and I learned the physics of transistors at a quantum level as part of the core curriculum. Do you think I can call myself an engineer, or should I limit it to just - what was the wording you used - oh yeah, syntax ape?
IIRC you can’t actually use the title “Engineer” prefixed or not without having a P.Eng license here in Canada. Of course, that didn’t stop my previous American employers from giving me the title of Software Engineer but it’s not supposed to be allowed
Which is completely stupid, you can perform engineering without having paid the order and it doesn’t feel like there’s any other word that explains the job quite as easily.
Looking up synonyms though it seems I could legally call myself a “software mastermind”, “software plotter” or “software captain”.
I do agree partially but I also get wanting “engineer” to be a protected term. I think software design is probably one more valid uses of the term but I think applying it to everything ain’t it (I.e. sanitation engineer).
Tbh I’m happy enough just having a Software Developer title
I mean it’s fine, but development is only one part of engineering, which is why I don’t like the term.
That’s fair… lately I’ve been more of a Kubernetes configurator than a developer so I get you
Yeah, I’ve looked it up and this is definitely the case, I’ve also had both Canadian and American employers refer to my position this way continuously with no repercussions (I similarly have an engineering degree in another field and was an eit and am now in software).
It’s weird because if the provincial engineering societies were serious about enforcing their rules, it would take them ZERO effort to find thousands and thousands and thousands of violations through like a single LinkedIn search. The fact that they dont put in such a minimal amount of effort kind of signals they don’t care about the rule.
Yeah, I moved into software from electrical engineering. “Software engineers” are rarely doing engineering. Though, weirdly, the LLM-assisted coding methods seems to be leading to more of a focus on specs, design documents, and testing methodology, which almost makes it more like actual engineering.