What facts did I disagree with? Are you operating with a different concept of what imperialism means, ie a semantical difference but not a logical one? Or am I wrong about Russia having relatively small financial capital and thus lacking the capacity to practice imperialism in the same way western countries do? Or am I wrong about China’s large and key industries being state owned, and their economy incentivizing multilateralism in order to sell more?
The first would be a semantical difference, not a disagreement with facts, the latter 2 would be if you could provide evidence to the contrary sufficient to outweigh what I said.
Maybe, but that would be better than just saying I “disagree with facts” while being cagey about what those “facts” are. That’s just ad hominem (and I mean that genuinely, you’re trying to discredit me through insult, not just insult me).
Either way, ultimately, this topic has shifted entirely from the base of the conversation, which is trying to find a good measure of economic productivity, and how focusing on financialized capital masked by GDP obscures actual productivity. It’s why imperialist countries are declining, and why the PRC is rising. I don’t think we disagree that western countries are going downhill and that the PRC is improving, so identifying why is productive.
I think we have come to some kind of a conclusion that neither of us is willing to part from. Maybe I am the idiot and wrong, but I’m good on this for now. Maybe I’ll have some more energy another day.
Fair enough. I recommend reading the ProleWiki page on imperialism I linked, it’s much shorter than reading Lenin (though you absolutely should) and can help get you to look at the problems (presumably) we both experience in decaying western countries, and how we can chart a course for a better world. You can’t find solutions without proper analysis of the underlying problems.
Seems like a very unbiased encyclopedia. If a methodology of analysis is skewed towards presenting what the author intended it is pretty much useless. I haven’t read it yet, this is just a gut feeling, maybe I’ll check it out tomorrow.
It’s openly biased towards communism, it’s a Marxist-Leninist encyclopedia. Wikipedia is also biased towards a western, liberal viewpoint. Truth is underlying and independent of interpretation, but how truth is presented is where bias shines through, and shine it does no matter where you find your source, as every source is biased. ProleWiki is nice because it includes its sources, even though it’s a work in progress, and more importantly the article on imperialism is an explanation of the concept and how it exists in reality from the Marxist-Leninist point of view.
If someone has a different definition of imperialism, you can still read the ProleWiki article and appreciate it, just substitute “imperialism” with “Leninist imperialism,” and read the article with that in mind. Saying a country does or doesn’t meet the Leninist definition of imperialism doesn’t mean it necessarily fits or doesn’t fit other definitions of imperialism. The Leninist interpretation is widespread, however, because it’s useful, and as such serves as an excellent explanation for how capitalism in developed countries functions and why it’s simultaneously wealthy and declining rapidly.
What facts did I disagree with? Are you operating with a different concept of what imperialism means, ie a semantical difference but not a logical one? Or am I wrong about Russia having relatively small financial capital and thus lacking the capacity to practice imperialism in the same way western countries do? Or am I wrong about China’s large and key industries being state owned, and their economy incentivizing multilateralism in order to sell more?
The first would be a semantical difference, not a disagreement with facts, the latter 2 would be if you could provide evidence to the contrary sufficient to outweigh what I said.
This is just going to result in me pulling up a source that you don’t deem reputable, only for you to pull up a source that I don’t deem reputable.
Maybe, but that would be better than just saying I “disagree with facts” while being cagey about what those “facts” are. That’s just ad hominem (and I mean that genuinely, you’re trying to discredit me through insult, not just insult me).
Either way, ultimately, this topic has shifted entirely from the base of the conversation, which is trying to find a good measure of economic productivity, and how focusing on financialized capital masked by GDP obscures actual productivity. It’s why imperialist countries are declining, and why the PRC is rising. I don’t think we disagree that western countries are going downhill and that the PRC is improving, so identifying why is productive.
I think we have come to some kind of a conclusion that neither of us is willing to part from. Maybe I am the idiot and wrong, but I’m good on this for now. Maybe I’ll have some more energy another day.
Fair enough. I recommend reading the ProleWiki page on imperialism I linked, it’s much shorter than reading Lenin (though you absolutely should) and can help get you to look at the problems (presumably) we both experience in decaying western countries, and how we can chart a course for a better world. You can’t find solutions without proper analysis of the underlying problems.
Seems like a very unbiased encyclopedia. If a methodology of analysis is skewed towards presenting what the author intended it is pretty much useless. I haven’t read it yet, this is just a gut feeling, maybe I’ll check it out tomorrow.
It’s openly biased towards communism, it’s a Marxist-Leninist encyclopedia. Wikipedia is also biased towards a western, liberal viewpoint. Truth is underlying and independent of interpretation, but how truth is presented is where bias shines through, and shine it does no matter where you find your source, as every source is biased. ProleWiki is nice because it includes its sources, even though it’s a work in progress, and more importantly the article on imperialism is an explanation of the concept and how it exists in reality from the Marxist-Leninist point of view.
If someone has a different definition of imperialism, you can still read the ProleWiki article and appreciate it, just substitute “imperialism” with “Leninist imperialism,” and read the article with that in mind. Saying a country does or doesn’t meet the Leninist definition of imperialism doesn’t mean it necessarily fits or doesn’t fit other definitions of imperialism. The Leninist interpretation is widespread, however, because it’s useful, and as such serves as an excellent explanation for how capitalism in developed countries functions and why it’s simultaneously wealthy and declining rapidly.