• masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    2 days ago

    This is a very long-winded way of saying what should be blatantly obvious - there is an extremely evident distinction to be drawn between leaders and bosses.

    Nothing screams unseriousness quite like peddling the idea of “leaderless” organisation.

    • FundMECFS@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 day ago

      Nothing screams unseriousness quite like peddling the idea of “leaderless” organisation.

      Disagree. Not everything needs leaders.

      Occupy Wall Street, Fuck Cars etc. These movements didn’t have leaders but did quite well.

      • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 day ago

        Occupy Wall Street,

        There were lots of people playing leadership roles during Occupy. Lots.

        Antifa? Lots.

        BLM? Lots.

        Every goddamn resistance movement in the history of human civilisation? Positively a shitload.

        Stop being unserious.

        • outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 day ago

          I think the fundanebtal problem is what a leader is.

          I heard/read something about how to set up crews/packs/whatevertheyrecalled for competitive dog sledding. You don’t put the fastest or strongest dog in front. You put a curious adventurous dog in front.

          So a ‘leader’ in this case, and i think what we need, isnt bosses or managers, but closer to explorers and scouts, people with initiative courage and creativity to try shit and be examples/report back. Solve disputes with evidence and forging known paths-that can still be disregarded or altered by those farther back.

          And i think most of us can do that in at least one direction.

          Not that we dont need coordinators or administrators at scale, but we dont have to pair those roles with authority/command. We can unbundle shit, cut out the rot/waste, and recombine it in new ways. Ask your radical queer friends about the concept!

          Maybe, for example, administrative tasks pair better with caring tasks or research/social science tasks than authority ever allowed.

          • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 day ago

            The fundamental question is not simply what a “leader” is, but also what a “follower” is - both are active roles that require agency.

            We can make this a lot easier for ourselves if we identify and reject the authoritarian and hierarchical baggage that the word “leader” has been hamstrung with. Once we do, we can simply redefine, for ourselves, what the terms “leader” and “follower” mean in ways that actually makes sense in a non-hierarchical context.

            So a ‘leader’ in this case, and i think what we need, isnt bosses or managers,

            Bosses and managers do not lead - you can accuse them of plenty of things, but leading isn’t one of them. The corporate world, in fact, absolutely hates leadership ability in every kind of way possible, and the reason is really not that hard to see. Corporations run on the same kind of toadyism you find in the political party world - absolute loyalty to the people above them in the corporate hierarchy, not responsibility to the people below them.

            Any concept of “leadership” that emerges from these worlds deserves to be rejected out of hand.

      • stray@pawb.social
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        1 day ago

        They don’t need to be formal leaders to be leaders. In a cooperative video game it’s pretty normal to have everyone just milling about until one or two people take charge of organizing. You might have one person herd a party together while another informs on strategies and organizes people into roles. They’re often not even the leader of the party as designated by the game; it’s the social dynamic of deferring to someone who seems to know what they’re doing that matters.

        • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          10 hours ago

          They don’t need to be formal leaders to be leaders.

          Here’s the thing… leadership is never a formal thing. They even acknowledge this in military writings (though never directly) - even old Sun Tzu drew a distinction between someone who is followed due to trust and respect and someone who merely has a rank.

          This presents us with a golden opportunity to redefine what this term means - not just for those familiar with radical politics, but for those who aren’t, too. If our much stronger and sensible understanding of leadership contrasts starkly with the wishy-washy esotericism the term is ladden with in the hierarchical world - well, let’s just say that you can’t buy that kind of propaganda.

    • PirateFrog@lemmy.dbzer0.comOP
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      2 days ago

      Usually I’d post this to !breadtube@slrpnk.net, but unfortunately slrpnk will be down for a while, and figured I’d share it here in the meantime.

      Is this community only for higher level discussions? I think for people newer to anarchism it’s a good encapsulation of the concept it tackles.

      • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 day ago

        Considering the (thoroughly unjustified) confusion about this subject matter, I don’t think it’s only “people newer to anarchism” that needs to see this.

        • PirateFrog@lemmy.dbzer0.comOP
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          1 day ago

          Ah, when you mentioned it was long-winded and should already be blatantly obvious, I thought you meant it was not useful information.

          • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 day ago

            My eye-muscles are badly strained due to them constantly rolling into the back of my head every time I hear some genius who confuses their counter-cultural circlejerking with actual political theory talk about “leaderless organisation” in anarchist spaces.

            So no… it’s not useless information. I just think this is something that should have been sorted out long, long ago.