there are definitely real concerns to be had about addictive and manipulative software, i use linux and a dumbphone as well. but “AI” is not some genius, it’s a dumb algorithm and i think ascribing these apocalyptic powers to it is ridiculous.

and using the word “consoomer” makes you look like a 4chan nazi whether that’s what you are or not.

You make some good points, but you’re also overstating the power of captology to the point of sounding paranoid tbh. Pretending that someone who’s aware of it, how it works and its goals is still completely powerless to resist is some misanthropic bullshit that gives some people (aware “consoomers” 🙄) far too little credit and others (the people developing captology and other disgustingly manipulative marketing strategies) far too much.

Is gaslighting and other propaganda, whether by human or technology, much more effective than most people know or are willing to admit? Definitely. Is it the Borg, though? Absolutely not.

For those out of the loop, like me, from Wikipedia:

Captology is the study of computers as persuasive technologies.[1] This area of inquiry explores the overlapping space between persuasion in general (influence, motivation, behavior change, etc.) and computing technology.[2] This includes the design, research, and program analysis of interactive computing products (such as the Web, desktop software, specialized devices, etc.) created for the purpose of changing people’s attitudes or behaviors.[3]

B. J. Fogg in 1996 derived the term captology from an acronym: Computers As Persuasive Technologies. In 2003, he published the first book on captology, entitled Persuasive Technology: Using Computers to Change What We Think and Do.[4]

Captology is not the same thing as Behavior Design, according to BJ Fogg who is the person who coined both terms and created the foundation for both areas.

No home internet connection. I only use public wifi.

Please never do anything important online. It’s way too easy for someone to have their Access Point broadcast the same SSID as starbucks (or whatever network) and then just sit and watch people connect, and MITM everything.

haven’t Timeline Algorithms, Google Search Results, AdSense, Google Maps and many more things been ML driven for a close to a decade now and also heavily influenced the information that we base our decision making on? Why do people think this stuff is new because it can generate better text now?

I think it will be exactly the same as with current web in general. 99% of people mindlessly consume YT influencers, disinformation on facebook, watch all the adds and buy everything they see in them. What percentage of Americans believed in QAnon? 25%? These people stopped thinking for themselves years ago. It’s hard to believe AI will make it worse. At the same time everyone who avoids all this shit will also find it easy to avoid AI generated content. It’s not like AI will start posting on lemmy and turn all or us into Trump supporters.

While I somewhat agree with your point about the upcoming wave of invasive AI, I don’t think adopting a digital hermit lifestyle is the best way through this. Think of it as the wave of PCs and smartphones: did a lot of people get negatively impacted by it? Sure, but did all (or even most) people who completely shunned the technology come out any better? Not necessarily. As this new technology became a central part of society in the past decades, the people who did the best were the ones who actively used it while simultaneously preventing themselves from…idk, developing a sort of mental dependence on it (though the degree to which most have succeeded in doing the latter is variable, the point still stays).

Now, is the upcoming AI wave the same as the smartphone wave? Well, not really. But are our options of tackling it the same? I’d say, basically yes. And that’s my point: it’s better to make use of this technology in ways that are less likely to backfire. Since the premise of your captology argument is that more invasive AI will be better in convincing us to buy products, this is, I’d argue, one of the perfect spots for FOSS alternatives. What if we do end up becoming addicted to some new AI app(s) that we know is (/are) manipulative? Look for alternatives not controlled by a corporation. It’s not the perfect option, but in my opinion it’s certainly better than completely boycotting the technology.

The internet and computing in general is no longer a harmless activity.

Woa, did you start to write that essay in 1981? 🤣

Just kidding, reasonable thoughts there. But I’m way more optimistic; in the future I see whole generations rejecting any communicative online activities, if its not work related. Idk when but at some point people will sinply go outside to be sure to interact with real humans.

But yea, good that you found a way out now already, can’t say the same for myself 🥲

I agree that generative AI is polluting the wider mainstream internet, turn every corner and you will see AI being mentioned or used ad nauseum. I also agree that captologist algorithms are addictive. But to disagree, I think you should still have faith in the wider population. The dopamine addicts are a fraction of the total population. I believe it is possible to outsmart AI driven captology. To give this up means giving into fatalism that AI technology is somehow “stronger than us” and will “enslave us”. I think this is x-risk speak and it’s being utilized by big AI to fear-monger and control public sentiment (which seems to be effective given the numerous articles from mainstream tech outlet).

That being said, I also don’t have a perfect way out for those who have fully embraced mainstream tech and services. Seems like they don’t care about their privacy because they have “nothing to hide”, are easily sold “privacy-friendly” solutions that are still shady (ahem Brave) and part of the problem, maybe they will care when their own bubble bursts. It’s hard to tell an addict to quit cold turkey.

I’ll share what I’m doing: stick to FOSS, use the Fediverse, run Linux and GrapheneOS, I also self-host a lot of services I rely on, don’t use any social media besides pseudo-anonymous forums, and only using second hand devices and parts. I’m exposed to the internet daily and have managed to avoid the generative AI plague and captology algorithms. I don’t view my relationship with technology as parasitic or unhealthy.

Also, you might be interested in this: https://permacomputing.net/

I don’t go that far yet, but I did uninstall the Reddit, Meta/Facebook and X/Twitter apps off my phone. Whenever I need to check those I just use the browser. Been using federated services more often as a result, and I lose less time procrastinating. (My watch list on YouTube is still at the verge of reaching the maximum size allowed, but hey, baby steps)

I think that’s bit extreme. I prefer to instead look for where I’m dependent/addicted and make corrections instead of avoid anything that could be addicting. For example:

• I found I spent way too much time on Facebook, so I deleted my account and switched to Reddit as a lurker (eventually made an account)
• I didn’t like how much I depended on Windows, so I switched to Linux
• I found I was too emotionally attached to the news, so I stopped reading/watching it; Reddit helped because I was about to subscribe to only the types of news stories I was interested in (mostly tech)
• I found I used Reddit too much and didn’t like the changes they were making, so I switched to lemmy

And so on. Here’s my tech stack:

• laptop and gaming desktop - openSUSE Tumbleweed
• phone - cheap moto phone, will switch to Pixel soon to switch to GrapheneOS
• home Internet - 50/10 Internet that’s reasonably inexpensive; I’ve largely solved the endless searching problem by getting into hobbies (reading, writing, video games, cycling)
• TVs - one smart TV and another “dumb” TV; I kinda hate the smart TV and use a raspberry pi for the “dumb” TV for streaming services
• streaming services - Disney+ (kids) and Netflix (wife and kids); I used to be kinda addicted to Netflix, but I did some introspection and decided I don’t really like their shows anyway, so I’ll only watch like 1-2 series in a given year
• consoles - switch and steam deck

In other words, I’ve found I can effectively detect and control my behavior. I still spend way too much time on things that don’t matter, but I did that as well as a kid without a phone or consistent Internet access (we had dialup), so I don’t think cutting things out is the solution.

My process is to set aside time to review how I spend my time at least once each year, and I’ll review my phone apps more frequently (about every other month). My phone’s launcher only shows 8 apps:

• text messaging (no phone app, I rarely make calls)
• bank app
• browser
• lemmy app - by far my biggest time suck these days, I may need to remove it from the list
• maps
• calculator
• YouTube app - actually newpipe; only shows updates from subscriptions, so no recommendations
• Libby for audiobooks

That’s it. If I want something else, I have to go look for it, and I rarely do that.

When it comes to AI, I really don’t have much exposure to it. I buy video games based on recommendations from people, not web services, and I generally only play single player games without microtransactions. I only open a streaming service if I already know what I want to watch. And so on.

This works for me, so I remain pretty connected, but in a controlled way. If you want to try it, set aside time to do some introspection on why you’re doing the things you do. Are you mindlessly scrolling because you’re bored? Try a hobby so you have something you’re excited about! Do you find yourself in stupid arguments on SM? Set aside a fixed time each day to use SM (there are apps that disable apps after a certain amount of time spent).

For the umpteen-thousandth time, Stallman was right, LOL.

For anyone who is interested, I highly recommend to read this article: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frai.2023.1216340/full

Counterpoint. You could launder all incoming content through an LLM running locally with the task to detoxify content. the technology cuts both ways.